Pathfinder 2E PF2: Second Attempt Post Mortem

[payn]

This discussion of skill DCs makes me glad I used the Proficiency Without Level variant with the Skill Points variant. At-level DCs still go up, but they never become impossible. Skill points give allow you to trade off for more proficiencies if you want them, which is viable because DCs don’t become impossible.

Im curious about this, however, doesnt it math out the same anyways?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Not in combat actions like recall knowledge, intimidate, stealth, etc... that 13 wont work.

I'm not primarily talking about those, though I've gotten use out of Intimidate even though I don't invest in it.

In 3E you could at least put resources towards being good at a skill. You could get ahead of the curve through investment. In PF2 you have no choice but to keep up, or just give up.

I assume you most be talking about things other than just the skill rank, because you sure couldn't with just it. And if you were a Fighter, you weren't going to have more than two skills, tops, unless you'd invested in Int, and it wasn't like most Fighters could afford to do that.

 

[Retreater]

This discussion of skill DCs makes me glad I used the Proficiency Without Level variant with the Skill Points variant. At-level DCs still go up, but they never become impossible. Skill points give allow you to trade off for more proficiencies if you want them, which is viable because DCs don’t become impossible.

That's way too much fiddling behind the screen for me. There's no way I would be able to apply that consistently.

 

[payn]

I'm not primarily talking about those, though I've gotten use out of Intimidate even though I don't invest in it.



I assume you most be talking about things other than just the skill rank, because you sure couldn't with just it. And if you were a Fighter, you weren't going to have more than two skills, tops, unless you'd invested in Int, and it wasn't like most Fighters could afford to do that.

Yeah, Fighters, sorcs, and clerics got a raw deal in 3E. PF1 gives some help with human and favored class. I also choose to up those classes to 4+int and take the wiz down to 2+int but thats house rules.

A fighter could go the combat expertise route and needs 13 int anyways. Gets you another rank to allow you to invest. They can spend ASI to get better stats to help out. They can take feats to help them out. They can get stat boosting items to help them out. They can use spells to buff to help them out.

Point is in the past there was choices you could make to invest in skills. Thats gone and you aint gonna diversify your stats in PF2, it would suicide to do so. So you're stuck taking one of a couple different stat arrays, 1-3 different class paths, and then a small list of skills you can take along as you level up. Somethings might help like multiclassing or free archetype, but its still limited and forces you out of your class temporarily. Kind of stifling.

 

[Justice and Rule]

The ASI's just keep up with the +/lvl treadmill math. They dont get you ahead or even back in the game really. Just make sure you keep being good at 1-2 things.

I thought they were trying to move away from +x items? If you are expected to twink out in gear that improves your +s, that might explain why my experience sucked so bad.

But like @The-Magic-Sword says, you won't be hitting maximum level DCs at everything. The whole point is that most DCs won't be at that because otherwise you'd be dunking the party repeatedly. For lower DCs in different tasks, having those skills matters even if you don't specialize. You will not be an expert at everything, but there's no need to force everyone to be. The point is to have real strengths and weaknesses so that you have to approach problems in interesting ways rather than being able to blunt force it with weight of rolls.

 

[kenada]

Im curious about this, however, doesnt it math out the same anyways?

In the sense that trained skills get worse against at-level DCs, yes. The spread is smaller though, so things shouldn’t ever get to be impossible. Admittedly, that matters more for mixing differently leveled challenges rather than just focusing on at-level ones.

Edit: My preference is for flat DCs, but that’s not really germane to the discussion.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

The ASI's just keep up with the +/lvl treadmill math. They dont get you ahead or even back in the game really. Just make sure you keep being good at 1-2 things.

I thought they were trying to move away from +x items? If you are expected to twink out in gear that improves your +s, that might explain why my experience sucked so bad.

The game rules do state that players are expected to get Potency and Striking on their Weapons at certain levels, and Potency and Resilience on their armor at certain levels to keep up with the monsters.

Take a look at the chart in the Automatic Bonus Progression variant for an at a glance of what built-in bonuses need to be covered in an itemless game (its also listed in the text of the treasure section of the core rulebook, but in less detail). This was the result of playtest feedback indicating people wanted items to be required part of progression, so the linear math was actually just offset at certain levels to provide that requirement.

Interestingly, it includes the skill item bonuses certain items have, and the Apex Items that boost ability scores at high levels.

 

[payn]

But like @The-Magic-Sword says, you won't be hitting maximum level DCs at everything. The whole point is that most DCs won't be at that because otherwise you'd be dunking the party repeatedly. For lower DCs in different tasks, having those skills matters even if you don't specialize. You will not be an expert at everything, but there's no need to force everyone to be. The point is to have real strengths and weaknesses so that you have to approach problems in interesting ways rather than being able to blunt force it with weight of rolls.

Problem is you have a strength, maybe a second one, and then a huge pile of weaknesses. You don't get a whole lot of choice in what those are either.

I get that the ability to make a variety of characters in any class in 3E could be a problem. Some folks could abuse the system to auto win at 1-2 things and suck at everything else. Paizo made this worse with all the supplements introducing "use X stat instead of Y stat" which allowed half the classes to go god stat. The point is they seemed to force everyone into a specialization and killed the general and flexible options of the past. Judging by late PF1 design, and the folks they brought on for PF2, its no mystery the direction they went. Clearly a matter of taste.

 

[payn]

The game rules do state that players are expected to get Potency and Striking on their Weapons at certain levels, and Potency and Resilience on their armor at certain levels to keep up with the monsters.

Take a look at the chart in the Automatic Bonus Progression variant for an at a glance of what built-in bonuses need to be covered in an itemless game (its also listed in the text of the treasure section of the core rulebook, but in less detail). This was the result of playtest feedback indicating people wanted items to be required part of progression, so the linear math was actually just offset at certain levels to provide that requirement.

Interestingly, it includes the skill item bonuses certain items have, and the Apex Items that boost ability scores at high levels.

Yeah I was on the wrong side (again) of the playtest on that one.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I haven't had too many problems feeling flexible in pf2e myself, part of it is that I don't consider the things my character isn't good at 'weaknesses' I consider them 'other people's job' but I also feel like the game gives you tools that can help you be pretty versatile in practice, Canny Acumen can boost perception, various archetypes and ancestry feats and such can help your skills, Lore skills can reduce the DC and the 'Additional Lore' feat auto scales in proficiency. This is all on top of the fact that you do have a decent percentage chunk of success for skills that fall behind a little, even against at-level DCs, the game also has Aiding and feats for doing that better, and it also has Follow the Expert, and the ASI's are distributed to make characters naturally well rounded.

Edit: Also the way Exploration activities work incentivizes doubling up with a specialist, since the whole party can't fling rolls at something until it works-- even if you have a lower bonus, your roll has a chance of being insurance if say, your perception specialist happens to roll low on their secret search check, your own secret search check might roll high and save the party taking a trap or missing a secret chamber or something.