Pathfinder 2E PF2: Second Attempt Post Mortem

[payn]

I appreciate the comments, particularly The-Magic-Sword, to help me work this out. I love Paizo adventures and so far the PF2 APs have not thematically spoken to me. Its just a matter of time until one does, and Id like to see if I can hack PF2 into an enjoyable system. Converting an AP back to PF1 seems like an extra burden I dont want to take.

I am thinking using the variants might help;
Auto-Bonus prog
Prof without level
Free Archetype

Im still dubious about skill point variant.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Problem is you have a strength, maybe a second one, and then a huge pile of weaknesses. You don't get a whole lot of choice in what those are either.

I get that the ability to make a variety of characters in any class in 3E could be a problem. Some folks could abuse the system to auto win at 1-2 things and suck at everything else. Paizo made this worse with all the supplements introducing "use X stat instead of Y stat" which allowed half the classes to go god stat. The point is they seemed to force everyone into a specialization and killed the general and flexible options of the past. Judging by late PF1 design, and the folks they brought on for PF2, its no mystery the direction they went. Clearly a matter of taste.

Yeah, I just don't see that with the numbers. Even by @Staffan 's numbers, you aren't completely ineffectual at Trained. There's risk, yes, and there should be! If it's an At-CR task, it should care some level of failure. But you are hardly ineffective, and it's on you to take steps to get bonuses to minimize your risk. Like @The-Magic-Sword says, items, bonuses, actions like Follow The Expert and other things can all be helpful here. No, just being trained in something won't knock something out of the park, even with an off-stat example there with the DC 24 and a +12/+13 isn't being useless. Rather, it means there's risk that you need to take into consideration.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I appreciate the comments, particularly The-Magic-Sword, to help me work this out. I love Paizo adventures and so far the PF2 APs have not thematically spoken to me. Its just a matter of time until one does, and Id like to see if I can hack PF2 into an enjoyable system. Converting an AP back to PF1 seems like an extra burden I dont want to take.

I am thinking using the variants might help;
Auto-Bonus prog
Prof without level
Free Archetype

Im still dubious about skill point variant.

We use Free Archetype, its just such a fun variant-- and it could help, I recently made a Wisdom oriented Magus who was trying to be an imitation rogue (since Int is surprisingly dumpable on them if you avoid certain options, and i already play too many Int characters), taking the Archaeologist with my Free Archetype feats earned me expert in Society and Thievery on top of my existing skill progression, bonuses to checks to find traps and not die to them, and other goodies the character really wanted, I also used Canny Acumen to shore up my Perception a little (since Magus's are two full steps behind Rogue, after taking the feat, I was only one.)

ABP also feels good, because the game's items have a lot else to offer, but sometimes it can feel bad to spend gold on the mandatory bonuses at the level they're supposed to come online. You still feel like gear is important, especially due to property runes and staves and such.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I appreciate the comments, particularly The-Magic-Sword, to help me work this out. I love Paizo adventures and so far the PF2 APs have not thematically spoken to me. Its just a matter of time until one does, and Id like to see if I can hack PF2 into an enjoyable system. Converting an AP back to PF1 seems like an extra burden I dont want to take.

I am thinking using the variants might help;
Auto-Bonus prog
Prof without level
Free Archetype

Im still dubious about skill point variant.

Auto-Bonus and Free Archetype are like auto-takes for me. It's awesome to have a high-level character be insanely deadly with any weapon they pick up, and giving characters more Feats to pick up is also great.

 

[payn]

Auto-Bonus and Free Archetype are like auto-takes for me. It's awesome to have a high-level character be insanely deadly with any weapon they pick up, and giving characters more Feats to pick up is also great.

Im a little surprised folks wanted the +x items back, and annoyed that the designers put them into the system math. There is a legion of GMs out there that do not understand the expected nature of these items. Often, GMs see magic items as a cherry on the sundae and if they want to be stingy thats ok. Its not, particularly in 3E/PF1.

In our PF2 campaign, folks often got excited about potency and striking runes. I asked what they did, "give a +1". I understand thats a big deal in PF2 math, but god its a boring thing for magic items to do.

 

[FrozenNorth]

This discussion of skill DCs makes me glad I used the Proficiency Without Level variant with the Skill Points variant. At-level DCs still go up, but they never become impossible. Skill points give allow you to trade off for more proficiencies if you want them, which is viable because DCs don’t become impossible.

Out of curiosity, what did you do for monsters in the Proficiency without level variant? Did you subtract on the fly each time? Update the numbers on the pdf or VTT? Print and correct?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Point is in the past there was choices you could make to invest in skills. Thats gone and you aint gonna diversify your stats in PF2, it would suicide to do so. So you're stuck taking one of a couple different stat arrays, 1-3 different class paths, and then a small list of skills you can take along as you level up. Somethings might help like multiclassing or free archetype, but its still limited and forces you out of your class temporarily. Kind of stifling.

I'd argue you can't help but diversify your stats in Pf2e. Those two four-step adds are going to go somewhere, and Its not self-evident that hitting something that will support your skill choices is automatically better than dumping things into Wisdom or Dex again just to up your saves a toggle. Outside your core stats I'm not even sure its worth chasing the main ones once you hit the point you're going to need two advances to make a difference. I did that with the Strength and Charisma on my Champion/Bard, but I'm really unsold I'd have missed it if I put them somewhere else instead.

 

[Thomas Shey]

In the sense that trained skills get worse against at-level DCs, yes. The spread is smaller though, so things shouldn’t ever get to be impossible. Admittedly, that matters more for mixing differently leveled challenges rather than just focusing on at-level ones.

Yeah, Payn and some others seem to assume the only DCs you're ever going to be dealing with are at-level or higher, which certainly hasn't been my experience, and that's even in an AP.

 

[Green Onceler]

I love Paizo adventures and so far the PF2 APs have not thematically spoken to me.

I used to love Paizo adventures too. However, I haven't been interested in running/playing one of their adventures since Ruins of Azlant in 2017. None of the recent Pathfinder releases appeal and, sadly, I do not feel compelled to purchase any of the Starfinder adventures either. Something about their recent adventures seems to consistently miss the mark for me but I cannot place my finger on what exactly.

 

[payn]

I used to love Paizo adventures too. However, I haven't been interested in running/playing one of their adventures since Ruins of Azlant in 2017. None of the recent Pathfinder releases appeal and, sadly, I do not feel compelled to purchase any of the Starfinder adventures either. Something about their recent adventures seems to consistently miss the mark for me but I cannot place my finger on what exactly.

I go through times where I'm just not interested in the theme. Im ok with this because I realize there are themes I do like that other folks probably dont. War for the Crown is the last AP I really wanted to play in. So far PF2 has had "join the circus" and "lets be cops" which dont really appeal to me. Abomination Vaults didnt either, but it was a good AP to kick the tires with.

I dont do Starfinder because I dont like fantasy in my Sci-Fi. I cant speak to their themes.