PH2: Shapeshifter druid variant

[Shaele]

Hi,

I'm looking for thoughts/advice/clarification on this variant from the PH2. I'm DM'ing a new campaign, with a druid that wants to take a shapeshifter over a straight-up druid. At first glance, it looks great - not too powerful, but interesting, and well-defined rules around shapeshifting (for those that haven't seen it - you give up standard wild shape and an animal companion for the ability to wild shape an unlimited number of times per day, swiftly, into a small number of forms).

Then I noticed what was missing
* the ability to take an aquatic form to swim or breath underwater. You have land-based forms and aerial forms only.
* the ability to burrow, climb, or do anything aside from fight.
* any regular movement-based abilities at all. You can't assume the form of a monkey, for example, to get a climb bonus - you use your own skills, regardless of form.
* the ability to assume any small or tiny creature. No more songbirds, cats etc.
* the ability to assume any huge form. No more massive creatures in combat.
* no more natural spellcasting feat - they're specifically excluded from taking it.

Now I'm scratching my head. Sure, you get the ability to swiftly change into and out of combat forms, but I think you lose a *lot* of utility. It's more pronounced if you consider all of the Wild Shape feats that a straight-up druid can use to enhance their abilities, that a Shapeshifter can't access. I can't help but think that this char at 13th level will pale in comparison to the 13th level druid with Natural Spellcasting, Fast Wild Shape, Extra Wildshape from our old campaign.

Anyone else see it this way? I can't help but think I'm missing something here...


Cheers
Shaele

 

[MarkB]

Well, you don't get shapechange forms to cover all the bases, but there are still plenty of druid spells to cover that sort of thing. Water Breathing, Spider Climb and Freedom of Movement are all on the Druid spell list, so you'll have those abilities if you need them.

 

[szilard]

Many people seem to like it.

I feel the same way you do.

Some possible fixes:

1. Add in a aquatic form.
2. Give appropriate movement and such to the elemental forms (swim speed and water breathing for Water, fly speed for Air, burrow speed for Earth, burn ability for Fire).
3. Make the forest defender form actually plant-like in some useful way.
4. Allow Shapeshifting Druids to buy Wild Shape feats that burn Wild Shape uses. Allow them to either use these abilities a certain number of times a day or use unused spell slots to power them.
5. Create Shapeshifting feats that add abilities to the forms - or extra forms.
6. Every 4 or 5 levels give the Druid a free Wild Shape or Shapeshifting feat.

-Stuart

 

[frankthedm]

Now I'm scratching my head. Sure, you get the ability to swiftly change into and out of combat forms, but I think you lose a *lot* of utility. It's more pronounced if you consider all of the Wild Shape feats that a straight-up druid can use to enhance their abilities, that a Shapeshifter can't access. I can't help but think that this char at 13th level will pale in comparison to the 13th level druid with Natural Spellcasting, Fast Wild Shape, Extra Wildshape from our old campaign.

Anyone else see it this way? I can't help but think I'm missing something here...


Cheers
Shaele

1. Unlimited shifting means being able to talk to party members. Sure wild shaping lasts hours, but unless you waste a lot of duration, you become the odd "man" out and unable to communicate with your friends once you take a form.
2. A DM might have already banned natural spell or the player might feel the feat is cheesy.
3. Some players even feel it unfair that a physically strong druid's animal form are the same as a weaklings.
4. Normal wildshape means another set of stats to dink with.
5. Sometimes you want a set of thumbs.
6. Of course it will pale in comparison. This druid will be on the same level as the other party members.

 

[ForceUser]

Anyone else see it this way?

No. Wild shape is broken because it's based on polymorph, and polymorph is broken. They are broken in that they are too powerful, too versatile, for a single ability/spell. So shapeshift, while admittedly a head-scratcher at times (no aquatic form?), is uniform and balanced. Don't like it? Don't use it. Or modify it. Whatever. Me, I prefer shapeshift, and the biggest reason that I feel it's balanced is because so many people whom I consider rules munchkins are screaming that it's a "nerf." Well, that and empirical observation--I've had a shapeshift druid IMC since the PHBII hit the shelves, and as far as I can tell, he kicks butt and has no complaints whatsoever.

 

[frankthedm]

Me, I prefer shapeshift, and the biggest reason that I feel it's balanced is because so many people whom I consider rules munchkins are screaming that it's a "nerf."

They make such convicing arguments, don't they?

 

[Tetsubo]

I happen to really like the new Shapeshifting option. If I could play a Druid at the moment I'd chose it myself. I did up a 20 level build for it just for fun.

The no aquatic form did confuse me. I think you need one. A strength based primate form might also be handy for climbing and such.

 

[Shaele]

Me, I prefer shapeshift, and the biggest reason that I feel it's balanced is because so many people whom I consider rules munchkins are screaming that it's a "nerf." Well, that and empirical observation--I've had a shapeshift druid IMC since the PHBII hit the shelves, and as far as I can tell, he kicks butt and has no complaints whatsoever.

Well, it *is* a nerf, of a sort, in that you have fewer forms, and fewer abilities while in those forms.

We're not powergamers by anyone's standards. The druid in our old campaign generally wildshaped to scout, or talk to other animals in the region. In combat, she'd generally stay elven so that she could talk to the party when it really mattered (e.g. "fall back for a heal!"). She occasionally wildshaped in combat, but since she could only do it a few times per day, tended to save them for non-combat activities.

With the new rules, the same player wanted to try a shapeshifter so that she could do more of those types of activities. We expected her to be giving up some of her offensive abilties (i.e. no bear companion) to become a better shapeshifter. Instead, she's found that she's better in combat, but much less versatile than she used to be.

That's what I find odd about the new shapechange rules: shapeshifter druids are actually worse at shapeshifting (in most respects) than straight-out druids with a couple of feats. They trade an animal companion, and most of the versatility, for better combat effectiveness. I'm not convinced that the two are equal... I can't help but think that a well-built 3.5 druid will be more effective in combat *and* have the versatility that the shapeshifter is lacking.

... and yes, I acknowledge that if you feel that natural spellcasting is "broken", and house-ruled it out, that this might be a more appealing class. We haven't done that though, so I'm stuck comparing the stock 3.5 druid with this variant. Call me an optimist, but I keep thinking that they should be roughly balanced against one another

Shaele

 

[Shaele]

Lest I forget...

I happen to really like the new Shapeshifting option. If I could play a Druid at the moment I'd chose it myself. I did up a 20 level build for it just for fun.

The no aquatic form did confuse me. I think you need one. A strength based primate form might also be handy for climbing and such.

It probably hasn't come out in my earlier postings, but I like this variant too! As a few people have pointed out, it's advantages are pretty significant - swift shape, the ability to change back and forth to communicate with the party, stat boosts.

I'm leaning towards one of the earlier suggestions - adding in feats to allow the shapeshifter to take on aquatic, climbing and maybe even burrowing forms.

RE: my earlier postings... please read them as questions and speculation on game design/balance more criticism of the rules

Shaele

 

[Piratecat]

If you were going to house-rule a feat to add an aquatic form (or a climbing form), how would you write it?