D&D 5E (2014) Phantasmal Killer?

[Piratecat]

This thread does my heart good. I had a NPC cast it at a PC, expecting the normal amount of terror I'd come to expect from earlier editions... and it was a big, fat non-event. I like this interpretation better.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Yeah, reading it...that's just sad. I'd rename it to something like "Phantasmal Head-Ache with a Side-Order of Possible Pants Wetting". What I'll probably make the save, round to round; success, you take no damage and aren't Frightened...fail and you take damage and are Frightened.

I'll also add in that if a natural 1 is rolled on a save, the character just dies on the spot. If he fails by more than 5, the character instantly drops into a fetal position and marks off one of his "failed Death Save" circles. After that, his 'saves' become Death Saves (he doesn't take any more 'phychic damage', but is still Frightened, also Prone, and can't do anything other than drool, gibber and eat grass). If he fills up his Death Save circles, he dies of fright. If he fills up his 'Life Save' circles, he conquers his fears and is now immune to the spell for it's duration.

So...dangerous, yes. Potentially deadly, yes. Worthy of 4th level? I think so.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[steeldragons]

Hiya!

Yeah, reading it...that's just sad. I'd rename it to something like "Phantasmal Head-Ache with a Side-Order of Possible Pants Wetting". What I'll probably make the save, round to round; success, you take no damage and aren't Frightened...fail and you take damage and are Frightened.

I'll also add in that if a natural 1 is rolled on a save, the character just dies on the spot. If he fails by more than 5, the character instantly drops into a fetal position and marks off one of his "failed Death Save" circles. After that, his 'saves' become Death Saves (he doesn't take any more 'phychic damage', but is still Frightened, also Prone, and can't do anything other than drool, gibber and eat grass). If he fills up his Death Save circles, he dies of fright. If he fills up his 'Life Save' circles, he conquers his fears and is now immune to the spell for it's duration.

So...dangerous, yes. Potentially deadly, yes. Worthy of 4th level? I think so.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

The laugh is for "Phantasmal Headache with a Side Order of Possible Pants Wetting", not your proposed ruling on the spell. hahahaha. Good stuff that.

The thing is, and why I presume the "frightened" save presented as first, is because once it is failed, you are rolling your saves on disadvantage. So, to your way of ruling, once they fail the frightened save, there is no reason to have them frightened/not frightened round to round. They're just frightened from then on...and rolling their damage saves with disadvantage.

I mean, as part n' parcel of having the spell something/worthy of being feared, I want them rolling on disadvantage. So I would be inclined to have them make the frightened rol, separate from the damage save, each round. I will also, totally, use the natural 1 and 5-under rolls you suggest.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Except the frightened condition doesn't affect saves, unfortunately.

 

[steeldragons]

Isn't a save in 5e just an ability roll?

"To make an Ability Check roll a d20 and add the relevant ability modifier." p.174

"To make a saving throw, roll a d20 and add the appropriate ability modifier." p. 179

The difference is, I suppose, an ability check is something that can be asked by the DM or you can try to do on your own. While a "saving throw", which is still using an ability to accomplish [overcome] something, is called out as "you don't normally decide to make."

It's another element of vague wording/DM's call. I would say it makes sense that frightened condition does effect them, as "saves" are simply a subset of "ability checks"...which you make with disadvantage while frightened.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Unfortunately, no. The game specifically defines saves as a "different type" of check than an ability check. (Page 7, among others, and specifically defined separate from ability checks in Ch. 7.)

 

[steeldragons]

Well...damn.

Go, go gadget-houserule, it is.

 

[Daedrova]

This spell is written as intended. I can understand some confusion based on the fact that there are two different effects, and two different saving throws. It is good to see that everyone’s intuition serves to discern how the spell should work (to be worthwhile) – but this can also be determined by parsing the words.

A successful save against the first effect (frightened) does not end the spell. “The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the target becomes frightened for the duration.” This says nothing about the duration/spell ending if they make this save. It simply determines if they are frightened (or not) based on this save.

Then, the following sentence specifically states “at the start of each of its turns… the target must make a Wisdom saving throw… on a successful save the spell ends.” This is the only line in the spell that indicates the effects ends. Only the save made at the beginning of the creatures turn ends the spell.

 

[Pickles JG]

Isn't a save in 5e just an ability roll?

"To make an Ability Check roll a d20 and add the relevant ability modifier." p.174

"To make a saving throw, roll a d20 and add the appropriate ability modifier." p. 179

The difference is, I suppose, an ability check is something that can be asked by the DM or you can try to do on your own. While a "saving throw", which is still using an ability to accomplish [overcome] something, is called out as "you don't normally decide to make."

It's another element of vague wording/DM's call. I would say it makes sense that frightened condition does effect them, as "saves" are simply a subset of "ability checks"...which you make with disadvantage while frightened.

I am sure this is very deliberate as you (I) do not want to easily give out effects that make themselves harder to get rid of.

Also saves are to a some extent passive so would not be effected by fear (harder to resist poison cos you're scared?).

Edit beware of Hex if you include saves in checks, unless you prepared to be inconsistent.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I agree with the readings of the spell that have it continue dealing damage even if the fear save was successful.