(PHB2) Knight's Challenge - how effective?

[RangerWickett]

An issue came up in tonight's game. There was a behir coiled in its cave, and we had to get past it, but we were pretty sure if we got close enough it would swallow somebody whole. So the knight challenged it, and it failed its save. Then the knight procceeded to back away from its cave, attacking it defensively and taunting its ineffectual attacks.

However, the GM wasn't too thrilled with this. The way he read the ability, the behir was only limited in as much that, if it did attack, it had to attack the knight over any other targets, but it was under no compulsion to actually engage in combat, and so it could just lay in wait in its hole. He ended up acceding to our pressure, since otherwise the knight ability is pretty crappy, and so the behir came out of its defensible position, we blocked its escape, and we trounced it.

Did we play this right? I don't have the text handy because I don't own a PHB2, but I'd like your opinions.

 

[Evil Monkey]

I would say you played it right. I've never played or DM'd a knight, but from what I've read on these boards that why they call it the "aggro" ability, cuz that's exactly what you would do in a video game. (One person draws creature's attention, bringing it back to the rest of the group for a stompin').

Just my thoughts.

 

[MarkB]

The DM was correct. The Behir should prioritise the knight over other targets, unless one of them attacks it, but aside from that it's not obliged to vary its tactics in any fashion.

 

[Henrix]

The ability used must have been Test of Mettle, and having seen it dismissed as badly as it has been here, I read up on it.

It isn't as bad as some have made it out to be. (Prejudices about it being a video game ability notwithstanding.)

Creatures that fail this save are forced to attack you in preference over other available targets. If a foe attacks by casting a spell or using a supernatural ability, he must target you with the attack or include you in the effect's area.
An opponent compelled to act in this manner is not thrown into a mindless rage and does not have to move to attack you in melee if doing so would provke attacks of opportunity against him. In such a case, he can use ranged attacks gainst you or attack any opponents he threatens as normal. If anyone other than you attacks the target, the effect of the test of mettle ends for that specific target.

I dare say the behir did not have to attack nor move out of his cave, but if he did attack anyone it'd have to be the Knight. So, your DM is right, and the Knight is possibly a playable class.

The part about not having to move "to attack you in melee if doing so would provke attacks of opportunit" is troublesome and could possibly be interpreted the wrong way.
But that it is evidently still allowed to use non-melee attacks and is not thrown into a mindless rage tells me that it is still allowed to fight intelligently, which in this case means staying in the cave.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I'd say the DM was right. The creature didn't HAVE to attack, but if it did, then it would have to attack the Knight. Because the ability doesn't "force" the creature to attack doesn't mean the Knight's ability is useless. The Knight had the option of staying where he was and duking it out with the behir. Instead, he chose to retreat (in the behir's mind). The behir wasn't forced to follow him, so it could have stayed where it was.

 

[boolean]

I agree with Henrix. Nothing would stop the behir from staying where it wanted.

The full text of the Knight class can be found here.

 

[Legildur]

Sounds like you need the Goad feat (Complete Adventurer and Races of Stone).

 

[RangerWickett]

Allow me to bold the parts that I think are important.

Creatures that fail this save are forced to attack you in preference over other available targets. If a foe attacks by casting a spell or using a supernatural ability, he must target you with the attack or include you in the effect's area.

An opponent compelled to act in this manner is not thrown into a mindless rage and does not have to move to attack you in melee if doing so would provke attacks of opportunity against him. In such a case, he can use ranged attacks against you or attack any opponents he threatens as normal. If anyone other than you attacks the target, the effect of the test of mettle ends for that specific target.

The emboldened part makes it fairly clear to me that the intent is that the creature will attack, which is why they include a provision for how it responds if it can't easily get to you. I think if the creature had the option not to attack at all, it would be spelled out.

I mean, the way the knight in our game does it, he roars a challenge to his enemies, telling them to have honor and face him without cowering. The last time this ability worked, it was against a mounted archer on a flying mount. The DM decided that the archer would just spend a few rounds flying around, drinking potions and letting his mount attack whoever it wanted. I'm sure if the DM could have justified the archer knowing the ability's duration, he just would have flown away for a few rounds, then come back later so he could kill our spellcasters instead of focusing fire on the knight.

Seriously, the flavor of the ability is that it is a challenge to engage in combat. Instead you're making it sound like the ability is called, "Leave her alone! *pout*", and that the intent is just to make the bad guy stop picking on your friends.

I'll go ask WotC.

 

[MithrasRahl]

It's definetely an ability that requires good DM balancing. Were I to be the DM in that particular situation, I would have had the behir come out of its cave it only had seen the knight, but stay if it knew there was a party laying in wait.

 

[MarkB]

The emboldened part makes it fairly clear to me that the intent is that the creature will attack, which is why they include a provision for how it responds if it can't easily get to you. I think if the creature had the option not to attack at all, it would be spelled out.

I think it's more likely that the assumption was that the ability would only be used during combat. In fact, the rules may be interpreted as requiring that:

Knight's Challenge: Your dauntless fighting spirit plays a major role in your fighting style, as important as the strength of your arm or the sharpness of your blade. In battle, you use the force of your personality to challenge your enemies. You can call out a foe, shouting a challenge that boosts his confidence, or issue a general challenge that strikes fear into weak opponents and compels strong opponents to seek you out for personal combat. By playing on your enemies' ego, you can manipulate your foes.

As DM, I would tend to only allow the ability to be used once battle is joined, not to provoke a creature into combat.