(PHB2) Knight's Challenge - how effective?

[RangerWickett]

As DM, I would tend to only allow the ability to be used once battle is joined, not to provoke a creature into combat.

Fair interpretation. We had already been in combat, though. The barbarian had gotten himself nearly devoured by stepping into the critter's lair, and so he had run away, and the behir had peeked its head out and cast unholy blight on us (half-fiend behir). At which point the knight was like, "B****, get yo' scaly butt out here and fight like a man."

 

[Henrix]

I think that the inclusion of not being "thrown into a mindless rage" covers all that pretty well.

For me, it is a simple delineation, as I'm (virtually) always the DM. With my interpretation of the ability I'd allow the class - in the mindless video game interpretation, sorry, you can't take the Knight class.


And it would be a bit powerful for a 4th level ability, not to mention boring.

 

[RangerWickett]

To be fair, the ability lasts until somebody else attacks it. I mean, it's not like our 7th level knight was going to take on a CR 11 half-fiend behir by himself. He was just using his ability to get it to come out. How would that be different from a suggestion spell -- "Come out and fight us outside your hole"? Hell, even a 1st level cleric could just use command to make the thing approach.

All we used the ability for was to get it out. Then we attacked it, breaking the challenge effect so it was free to do what it pleased. It wasn't in a mindless rage. It was just momentarily letting its ego get the best of it, causing it to step out and bite off more than it could chew. Honestly I think that phrase -- "mindless rage" -- is causing a lot of trouble here. You can still make sub-par tactical decisions without being in a mindless rage.

 

[Quidam]

You can still make sub-par tactical decisions without being in a mindless rage.

An obviously suicidal one, however, would qualify you as mindless in my book.

 

[RangerWickett]

An obviously suicidal one, however, would qualify you as mindless in my book.

It had already committed suicide by attacking us. It just hadn't died yet.

We're clearly getting into a debate over personal opinion here, and you are all right by the word of the rules. I'll just say that 'obviously suicidal' is different from 'dangerous.' An ability that made the creature stand still while we wailed on it would be broken, but all this ability does is emulate the command spell, with a limited choice of what you can command and a slightly longer duration, which usually won't last because somebody else will attack the thing.

Like MarkB said, the ability only applies in combat. If the thing wanted to surrender or flee, then I could see it ignoring the challenge. But it obviously planned to fight us. We used an ability that screwed with its plans, kinda like how it has the ability to screw with ours by swallowing us whole.

 

[gabrion]

Well there's always the semantic argument about the exception proving the rule. In this case, "if doing so would provke attacks of opportunity against him," is a pointless addition to original sentance unless the creature normally would have to attack.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Here is my opinion.. keep in mind that this would depend on the positioning at the cave mouth..

{I would read the scenario as the Behir just wanted to keep its doorstep clear of any solicitation.. perhaps the recent flood of magazine sales and Girl Scout Cooky offers were just too much }

Knight uses Test of Mettle, Behir launches it most ferocious attack {Breath Weapon}... Knight backs away.... end of Test of Mettle effect and the Behir is fine staying in the cave entrance.


The Knight should stand against the overwhelming odds he has called upon himself, not retreat from danger....thats the whole point if the ability {as I read it}


If you want to get into the 'rulesy' debate, the key phrase IMO is "If a foe attacks ..."
The Test of Mettle ability assumes that the opponents are already intent on combat. This scenario the opponent is intent on being left alone.
Does this make the ability weak? depends on how you use it. In open battle against numerous foes you can 'save' your allies from the nasty BBEGs. In normal adventuring.. not so much.

After all, perhaps this particluar Behir was a bit slower than the average of its kind and wouldn't even be affected by the challenge

 

[Henrix]

There's evidently need for the DM to judge exactly what the creature does, at least. Whether it would charge out of the cave or not would depend on how it felt the situation was, but it would not have to charge out.



The ability as written is also clearly meant for several foes, as it potentially affects all enemies with high enough CR within 100 feet (and it doesn't say anything about walls or anything limiting the effect).
So, technically, I'd be wary of using this ability where I'm not certain there are no more foes within 100 feet. :\


Ought not this ability be Mind-Affecting, by the way?

 

[RangerWickett]

There's evidently need for the DM to judge exactly what the creature does, at least. Whether it would charge out of the cave or not would depend on how it felt the situation was, but it would not have to charge out.



The ability as written is also clearly meant for several foes, as it potentially affects all enemies with high enough CR within 100 feet (and it doesn't say anything about walls or anything limiting the effect).
So, technically, I'd be wary of using this ability where I'm not certain there are no more foes within 100 feet. :\


Ought not this ability be Mind-Affecting, by the way?

It requires line of sight, so unless there are hidden or invisible enemies, challenging shouldn't result in extra enemies showing up. And it's not mind-affecting because undead are immune to mind-affecting effects. It's . . . like, ego-effecting or something. It's like diplomacy. Diplomacy affects your mind, in a broad sense, but it's not mind control, so it can affect undead.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Does a Knight's challenge issued that way give a saving throw bonus? Seriously, it's a Knight's challenge not a ghetto pimp slap.

"B****, get yo' scaly butt out here and fight like a man."