PHBII: Retraining?

[0-hr]

I've been reading through the PHBII Retraining section and was wondering what other people thought about the material. I'm especially concerned because the book has a name very similar to "The Player's Handbook", which might make many consider it "core" material.

The "Retraining" rules let you swap out a feat, or skill, or school specialization, or domain, once per level (when you level up) without any real cost or limitations. Doesn't that make it likely that lost of 1st level characters will take a "temporary feat" like Toughness because they can just swap it out later for a late-bloomer like Power Attack of Empower Spell?

If the PHBII is accepted as core, then this sort of thing is fully sanctioned and even encouraged. My initial is that this is yet another form of power creep and a ripe exploit for munchinkins everywhere. Maybe I'm just being old fashioned though. Maybe the plan is really that we make low level characters with every intention of "retraining" them into higher level characters as the campaign progresses. It is certainly a paradigm shift (at least for me).

 

[MarkB]

It doesn't really concern me - it just seems like a slightly different approach to playing the game.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with a system that allows for adjustments of characters' existing abilities and specialisation as they grow, except that it's not the way we're used to playing. So long as these rules are used on a level playing field with all PCs having equal access to them, I don't see them unbalancing gameplay.

And yes, they encourage characters to take feats and spells that are powerful at low levels but lose effectiveness later, but that's not intrinsically a bad thing either - it'll see some actual use being made of those options, instead of them uselessly gathering dust except when made prerequisites for more useful feats and PrCs.

I wouldn't expect every game to use the retraining rules. But I also wouldn't expect to see any serious balance issues in those which do.

 

[Seeten]

Our games have always used a "If the feat turns out to blow in our campaign, you can swap it out" rule, and we routinely retcon overpowered, and underpowered, feats into other stuff. It doesnt change anything, power wise, but it does encourage "trying stuff out" that might be cool, because if it isnt, you dont have to regret your choices for the next 2 years of your life.

 

[Sidekick]

Hmm - I don't see any problems with it. And frankly I'm going to be using the re-build/retrain rules on one of my player's characters as a part of the campaign - she's got no say in the matter.

Spolier block so that any of my players don't read this
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Basically the poor PC has an aberrant dragonmark, that some Karrnathi necromancer was experimenting on in the last adventure (co-Dm ran it), and its gone blood red and does new freaky stuff.

At about 9th level I'm going to start turning the character insane - one-side quest later he'll Emerge from the Seven-caves or some Eberron strong area with a greater dragonmark and slightly swapped out feats etc. I'll have the players input so it won't be total rail-roading.

That and she trusts me with her character development quite implicitly - should be great fun (provide they don;t all die before then).
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So yeah - I'm glad they brought in those rules, it'll be a great addition to those games that want to use them and won't be missed at those tables where its not used.

 

[cmanos]

If you are a DM< you have a say in what people can use in your game. If you say "You cannot retrain" in your game, plain and simple, players will have to accept that they cannot do that.

I haven't actually read the section so I can't comment on it.

C

 

[Thanee]

It's just a game. You play it to have fun. Such a rule can greatly add to the fun, since it will allow you to change something, which might turn out not to be the way you intended it to be, when you first decided to pick it up (happens often enough).

Of course, it might seem a little weird, if an ability is suddenly lost and another gained, but c'mon... leveling in D&D is completely silly (from a realistic pov) to begin with, sorcerer's can simply 'forget' spells, psions can more or less simply 'forget' everything they know and rebuild the whole character every other day (as long as the XP are there).

It's not like this is something entirely new to the game.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Prophet2b]

I just bought the PHBII yesterday, and I have to say - I was very excited about the rebuilding your character chapter. As a new DM and having only played table-top roleplaying (specifically D&D) for a little less than a year now, I hadn't considered that before.

I think I'll implement it in my game I have going right now, but I'll make it more limited than the PHBII allows. And I'll just tie it in with the story - if a player expresses a desire to change something with his character, then we'll work it in somehow with maybe an adventure that focuses on that retraining, he'll have to take some downtime, something like that.

Personally, I love the rebuilding section. And I think this book has got to be one of the best D&D purchases I've ever made!

 

[KarinsDad]

I think the issue some of us "old fashioned" players have with the concept is that it encourages munchkinism moreso than the game already does.

There is a level of consistency and plausibility that goes out the window when players can swap abilities as if they were swapping magic items. Deities should not allow their worshippers to switch Domains. Specialized Wizards who understood Abjuration and did not understand Conjuration should not suddenly be able to switch what he could and could not understand.

It's also a little discouraging that the gaming community is walking down the primrose path of "super options". Every Rogue can be a Cleric, a Wizard, a Righter, and a Commoner, all at the same time. If the player doesn't like the character, he can morph it into something else.

Sure, it is only one ability in PHB II, but it might be entire levels of stuff in PHB III. Or, change your race. Change your gender.

I have a similar concern about feats. The game is leaning towards Supernatural feats that allow PCs to do things that typically were within the domain of spells before.

I have a similar concern about immediate actions. Again, the game is leaning towards actions outside of a character's normal turn which opens up Pandora's box for all sorts of abuse.


Granted, I understand the "fun POV" and even agree with it. But, I still have concerns about balance and consistency when you can change your PC like you can change your clothes.

 

[Thanee]

...when you can change your PC like you can change your clothes.

What is said above, is certainly much less than that. Being able to swap out one thing every now and then is ok. Being able to completely redesign the character every other level is not.

Bye
Thanee

 

[MarkB]

I think the issue some of us "old fashioned" players have with the concept is that it encourages munchkinism moreso than the game already does.

There is a level of consistency and plausibility that goes out the window when players can swap abilities as if they were swapping magic items. Deities should not allow their worshippers to switch Domains.

This one I don't get. Why not? Why shouldn't a worshipper change in which aspects of their deity they venerate as they themselves change?

Specialized Wizards who understood Abjuration and did not understand Conjuration should not suddenly be able to switch what he could and could not understand.

True, this sort of change should generally require significant effort. And the Retraining section includes optional rules for GP and time requirements to alter different character aspects.

It's also a little discouraging that the gaming community is walking down the primrose path of "super options". Every Rogue can be a Cleric, a Wizard, a Righter, and a Commoner, all at the same time. If the player doesn't like the character, he can morph it into something else.

I don't see anything that lets you be all those things at once. Retraining doesn't allow you to build a character that you couldn't build from scratch using existing rules.

Sure, it is only one ability in PHB II, but it might be entire levels of stuff in PHB III.

That seems unlikely. And deploring any change simply because you're afraid of extreme change would result in the entire system freezing.

Or, change your race. Change your gender.

Those options are already in the PHBII, but not via retraining. They require extensive magical intervention as the culmination of a personal quest.

Granted, I understand the "fun POV" and even agree with it. But, I still have concerns about balance and consistency when you can change your PC like you can change your clothes.

As it stands, you can change one aspect of your character at each level-up. I know most games don't include a lot of role-playing of hygeine issues, but I hope your characters change their clothes at least a little more often than that.