D&D 5E Philosophy: Devil's Sight

[DND_Reborn]

Didn't think this would go on for 5 pages, but it looks like my original question has led to a couple tangents. Welcome to the Internet!

Anyway, I'm going to ignore all those and go back to my original ask of "How would you describe it to players?"

And I'm going to share how I handled it at my table since it became relevant in a complex scenario. You all have discussed a lot of this already. I'm just compressing it as best I can. I added "IMO" clarity for my table.

I worked from the premise that there are two items in contention: the environment ("objective") and individual perception ("subjective").

WRT lighting, areas of the environment can be lit, dimly lit, or dark.
Time of day, location, spells and objects affect lighting.
Perception doesn't affect lighting, only the viewer. DS and DV are perception affecting abilities.

IMO, a creature with 120' of DS and DV sees as if their environment were lit, even if it is dark or dimly lit. But because several abilities are dependent on recognizing lighting differences, they can continue to be aware of those differences. So they know when an area is dark or dimly lit, but they can see as if the area was lit anyway.
Because naughty word magic.

The main reason I had to rule this way is because they players ended up in an area constructed of shadows, and housing shadow creatures. I had to consider whether shadow was dark or dimly lit. It's certainly not a lit area. But then logically, shadows (and therefore all creatures and objects in this realm) ran the risk of being partially or completely invisible to creatures with DS and DV.

In the end, for this situation, I had to give shadow substance. Everything was shades of gray, but it was all real. A shadow blocked vision (which did confuse the DS/DV character for a while, because it was darkness that couldn't be seen through).

And so we come back "normal" environments. My ruling would extend here: shadows have substance. Much like the external visual impact of fog, rain, or snow, a shadow is an environmental (para-elemental) effect that persists beyond the concepts of dim light and darkness.

Light and dark may be opposites of a spectrum that includes dim light. But for my game, shadow is not in that spectrum. The interaction of light and dark can produce not only varying levels of light, but also shadow, which is a different thing entirely.

And the first impact of this (that just popped into my head), which I would allow at my table, is that a character that made a successful stealth roll to hide in shadows would remain hidden even if they were in the field of vision of a creature with DS/DV. Perception does not change the environmental reality. All bets are off if the environment changes (frex, a Light spell that gets rid of the shadow).

YMMV.

Interesting. I'm glad you chimed in again.

If someone is hidden in shadows, they are using the shadows created by light to hide themselves. In effect, they are still in light, even if dim.

Now, this is different from someone standing out in the open in darkness, beyond the edge of light. This person is not hidden in shadow, but in darkness. DS allows sight in darkness as if bright, so then the hidden person would be obvious, just standing there out in the open.

Anyway, its late so I hope that made sense. If not, I'll revisit it in the morning.

 

[keynup]

I agree with allowing Hide in shadows working vs DS or DV, I may allow advantage depending on circumstances. Unless the hider knows to account for DS/DV.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Interesting. I'm glad you chimed in again.

If someone is hidden in shadows, they are using the shadows created by light to hide themselves. In effect, they are still in light, even if dim.

Now, this is different from someone standing out in the open in darkness, beyond the edge of light. This person is not hidden in shadow, but in darkness. DS allows sight in darkness as if bright, so then the hidden person would be obvious, just standing there out in the open.

Anyway, its late so I hope that made sense. If not, I'll revisit it in the morning.

But a shadow is, by definition, an area of darkness surrounded by light. So if a person with DS looks into a heavily shadowed area, the should be able to someone standing in a shadow normally.

 

[clearstream]

But a shadow is, by definition, an area of darkness surrounded by light. So if a person with DS looks into a heavily shadowed area, the should be able to someone standing in a shadow normally.

Strictly, DS does not affect dim light, only darkness. So a rogue with skulker (or anything else that allows hiding in dim light) remains hidden from a person with DS.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Strictly, DS does not affect dim light, only darkness. So a rogue with skulker (or anything else that allows hiding in dim light) remains hidden from a person with DS.

A shadow isn't dim light. A shadow is the complete absence of light.

 

[DND_Reborn]

But a shadow is, by definition, an area of darkness surrounded by light. So if a person with DS looks into a heavily shadowed area, the should be able to someone standing in a shadow normally.

I guess that would be up to the DM. Is the "shadow" they are hiding in so dark is should be considered darkness or dim light?

Remember, if it is considered darkness, than DV can perceive with disadvantage (as dim light), but normal sight has no chance, being blind, and automatically fail the check. In this case, DS would see them normally unless they happen to be hiding behind an object while in the shadows.

If it is considered dim light, DV sees with no disadvantage, normal vision and DS would be with disadvantage.

A shadow isn't dim light. A shadow is the complete absence of light.

I disagree. Complete absence of light is darkness. If you stand under the shadows of a cluster of trees during the day, that would be dim light, not darkness. Within darkness, shadows don't appear because everything is darkness. You need a light source to have shadows.

 

[clearstream]

A shadow isn't dim light. A shadow is the complete absence of light.

I see this much the same way as @dnd4vr, which is to say I think of shadow as only occurring in the presence of light. Whereas complete absence of light is a different thing: darkness.

 

[merwins]

Applying logic, physics and other real-world concepts to a fantasy environment is completely natural.

But you sorta have to choose and set your boundaries. At some point, it's "Shut up: MAGIC!"

I personally could not reconcile a shadow being interpreted as a function of light within my campaign. There were too many impacts on the game I wasn't willing to adjudicate.

Say a creature of shadow moves from a lit area to a dark area. Does it become invisible?

For my purposes, no. If you have DV or DS, you'll see that shadow creature plain as you would in a lit area. Individual perception matters; the environmental doesn't grant the shadow any additional abilities.

Once I labeled shadow as "different" it got much simpler, and more internally consistent, which is generally important for players.

And I do agree, "conventional" shadows are created through an interplay of light and physicality of objects. But once they're created, as a GM, I allow the magical nature of the world to exert it's influence over that shadow to various degrees. In some situations, it may even have the ability to detach itself from it's source and move about on it's own or manifest physically.

 

[tetrasodium]

Applying logic, physics and other real-world concepts to a fantasy environment is completely natural.

But you sorta have to choose and set your boundaries. At some point, it's "Shut up: MAGIC!"

I personally could not reconcile a shadow being interpreted as a function of light within my campaign. There were too many impacts on the game I wasn't willing to adjudicate.

Say a creature of shadow moves from a lit area to a dark area. Does it become invisible?

For my purposes, no. If you have DV or DS, you'll see that shadow creature plain as you would in a lit area. Individual perception matters; the environmental doesn't grant the shadow any additional abilities.

Once I labeled shadow as "different" it got much simpler, and more internally consistent, which is generally important for players.

This is a good point. If devils sight was written with fluff & such one could argue that the fluff should be used for good or ill in edge cases like this one... but it's written on a purely mechanical way on par with fast movement or slow fall. Unlike those two abilities baked into their respective classes, devils sight is just one of the many almost entirely purely mechanical grab bag options watering down otherwise interesting class archtypes into a homogenized parade of sameness.

 

[clearstream]

Applying logic, physics and other real-world concepts to a fantasy environment is completely natural.

But you sorta have to choose and set your boundaries. At some point, it's "Shut up: MAGIC!"

I personally could not reconcile a shadow being interpreted as a function of light within my campaign. There were too many impacts on the game I wasn't willing to adjudicate.

Say a creature of shadow moves from a lit area to a dark area. Does it become invisible?

For my purposes, no. If you have DV or DS, you'll see that shadow creature plain as you would in a lit area. Individual perception matters; the environmental doesn't grant the shadow any additional abilities.

Once I labeled shadow as "different" it got much simpler, and more internally consistent, which is generally important for players.

And I do agree, "conventional" shadows are created through an interplay of light and physicality of objects. But once they're created, as a GM, I allow the magical nature of the world to exert it's influence over that shadow to various degrees. In some situations, it may even have the ability to detach itself from it's source and move about on it's own or manifest physically.

Looked at purely in terms of game mechanics and ignoring other real-world concepts, the system defines dim light, and it defines darkness. Two separate states.

One might decide that a shadow is darkness. That will have no impact on the use of the skulker feat to hide in dim light, wherever dim light exists such as is created by a lamp.