D&D 5E Philosophy: Devil's Sight
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Disclaimer: Sage Advice is not The Rules. It is clarification of what the rules are meant to say.
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But per SA, Devils Sight doesn’t interact with Dim Light. Which is super weird, but maybe that is the point.
Does Warlock Devil's Sight see in darkness as if it were dim light or as if it were bright light?
D&D Sage Advice ·
www.sageadvice.eu
But per SA, Devils Sight doesn’t interact with Dim Light. Which is super weird, but maybe that is the point.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
LOL I would hardly call my response "shooting the OP".Hey don't shoot the OP.I only came up with this question after researching online and finding those definitions for DS and DV.
The logic of 'dim light doesn't change under DS, only DV" is pulled from Crawford+ related sources. I'm just rolling with it.
Disclaimer: Sage Advice is not The Rules. It is clarification of what the rules are meant to say.
Does Warlock Devil's Sight see in darkness as if it were dim light or as if it were bright light?
D&D Sage Advice ·
But per SA, Devils Sight doesn’t interact with Dim Light. Which is super weird, but maybe that is the point.
And yet, IME, another reason why JC is not the best game designer out there.
Let's place three rogues hidden in a forested area:
#1 is hidden behind some bushes within the bright light of a torch held by a character. So, the character can try to see #1 with a normal Wisdom (Perception) check.
#2 is hidden up in a tree at the edge of the dim light provided by the torch. The character makes a check to spot #2 with disadvantage.
#3 is hidden behind a rock in the darkness beyond the light spell, so the character automatically fails the checks to spot him.
Note: the outer circle is 60 feet, the edge of DV typically.
Throw just DV in:
#1, bright light, no change
#2, dim light is now "bright", no disadvantage
#3, darkness is now dim, so with disadvantage
With just DS (JC-version):
#1, bright light, no change
#2, dim light is still dim light, so disadvantage
#3, the darkness beyond the dim light is now "bright, so no auto-fail and no disadvantage
So, by his (JC) interpretation, with DS, you have normal bright light, dim light, and darkness--which within 120 feet is also bright light... So, a rogue hiding in the bright light or darkness can be seen with normal perception, the one in dim light is a perception check with disadvantage?
That means the region between bright light and "bright" DS darkness is "dim light". How can your vision be bright, dim, and then bright again?
Yeah, that makes so much sense... Sigh.
Back to the OP: If a light is on in a room, it radiates light as well as that light illuminating the area. If magical darkness were cast over the light, it still radiates light, but now the illumination is suppressed. DS allows you to see through into the darkness, so you would see it radiating light as always just as you see a candle radiating light normally.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
LOL I would hardly call my response "shooting the OP".
And yet, IME, another reason why JC is not the best game designer out there.
Let's place three rogues hidden in a forested area:
#1 is hidden behind some bushes within the bright light of a torch held by a character. So, the character can try to see #1 with a normal Wisdom (Perception) check.
#2 is hidden up in a tree at the edge of the dim light provided by the torch. The character makes a check to spot #2 with disadvantage.
#3 is hidden behind a rock in the darkness beyond the light spell, so the character automatically fails the checks to spot him.
View attachment 116655
Note: the outer circle is 60 feet, the edge of DV typically.
Throw just DV in:
#1, bright light, no change
#2, dim light is now "bright", no disadvantage
#3, darkness is now dim, so with disadvantage
With just DS (JC-version):
#1, bright light, no change
#2, dim light is still dim light, so disadvantage
#3, the darkness beyond the dim light is now "bright, so no auto-fail and no disadvantage
So, by his (JC) interpretation, with DS, you have normal bright light, dim light, and darkness--which within 120 feet is also bright light... So, a rogue hiding in the bright light or darkness can be seen with normal perception, the one in dim light is a perception check with disadvantage?
That means the region between bright light and "bright" DS darkness is "dim light". How can your vision be bright, dim, and then bright again?
Yeah, that makes so much sense... Sigh.
Back to the OP: If a light is on in a room, it radiates light as well as that light illuminating the area. If magical darkness were cast over the light, it still radiates light, but now the illumination is suppressed. DS allows you to see through into the darkness, so you would see it radiating light as always just as you see a candle radiating light normally.
DS isn’t a vision improvement like DV is. It works in a weird way, making you see normally in darkness. You don’t treat it as bright light, you just see in darkness in full 4K HD. It’s unnatural. It has nothing to do with lighting beaming into your eyeballs.
So, arguments about it making sense or not don’t really mean much to me.
That said, 5e is intentionally written so that you can just interpret the rules however is most natural to you, and just play. It isn’t this way because the designers couldn’t write a “tighter” or “more coherent” game (accusations I’ve heard dozens of times. It’s this way because for the majority of players it is easier to run. Most people don’t need to look up rulings on SA. They just trust their own interpretation and run with it.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
Totally get your point but as you say that is your interpretation, which is cool.
For me, DS is an improvement and more "powerful" than DV, after all many races have DV (too many IMO actually) but only some warlocks choose DS. Now, rarity is not the only reason since increased rarity does not necessarily equal increased power. It is often true, but not universal.
And as far as treating it as bright light, I was using that in my point because that is what JC says. If he interprets DS as making darkness into a brightly lit area, you will have dim light always in between.
As far as the language used in 5E, I am of two minds on that, myself. Personally, I don't find tighter and more coherent rules harder to follow. The language they use to make things easier, often times, has created a lot of issues with those rules. How many times have feat likes Shield Master come up? How many interpretations can you make for what is "normal" vision in DS?
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
You know, I almost pointed that out... but well, I am not that anal myself.Hahahah. I knew a very anal DM who ruled that Devil Sight did not allow you to see through darkness, because you "normally" see nothing in darkness.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
But the point is, it doesn’t actually matter if you get the ruling “right” on any of those. Your own mental filters will lead you to an interpretation pretty immediately, and you can just use that.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
Sure, but problems sometimes arise when different people have different interpretations. It is only supposed to be a game, but I've seen some people get pretty upset when those differences create problems. Much of that could have been avoided IMO if the rules were more concrete since the DM can always change them.
Anyway, I agree there is no "right", though.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
Yes/no is not what I'm going for.
"Because magic/fantasy" is an adequate answer, though.
Unless I missed some authoritative source, DS does not affect dim light. It only makes darkness appear as brightly lit. Dim stays dim.
DV expressly makes dim appear as brightly lit.
FWIW, that was added in later printings of the PHB. Originally, DV only made darkness into dim light, it didn't help dim light at all.
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