Pikemen and Cavalry

[gpetruc]

A horse has a face of 5 ft x 10ft (1 square x 2 squares) and the rider sits on the back square. This is what it's stated in the books.

Among the normal weapons in the PHB none of the polearms have a reach greater than 10ft

That is: only the front rank of the pikemen can attack the charging rider (and only on a prepeared action. the AoO is only against the horse) and the second rank can attack only the horse.

I was considering to add longer pikes, with the same stats of the longspear (damage 1d8, crit x3) but with 15ft and 20ft reach (still usable only at their maximum reach and not against nearer enemies, probably) in order to have pikemen formations be more effective.

I'm also considering to use the feat from NetBook of Feats that removes the cover penality when fighting in close ranks with polearms

Would this break any balance in the rules?
Are there any rules stated somewhere (maybe in Sword and Fist, that I don't have) that say anyting about this ?

 

[SableWyvern]

Keep in mind that pike formations would not generally have tried to attack riders initially; they would actually have focussed on the mounts.

In general, I do not think that d20 is well suited to simulating a realistic confrontation between pikes and cavalry. Generally speaking, against well trained pikes, cavarly simply would not charge until the formation had been hammered by missile fire and was virtually broken.

Adding extra reach would probably make the overall effectiveness of a pike formation more realistic vs cavalry, but in a more standard d&d encounter, you are likely to upset some balance unless you are very careful. Certainly, an English pike (about 18' long, IIRC, which I may well not), would be amost completely useless outside of a large formation.

 

[Vaxalon]

The fact that a 15' pike is only usable at the 15' mark will make it pretty hard to use outside of a formation.

If you have a sword, close to 5' and suck up the AOO, the pikeman is in pretty tough shape.

He can either back up ten feet (and take the AoO) and hit you, or he can drop the pike and attack you with a secondary weapon.

 

[mikebr99]

From S&F:

Hold the Line: May make an AoO when someone charges you... as soon as they enter your threatened area.

That's the only appropiate feat from there...

I agree with SableWyvern, that smart cavalry wouldn't be charging a formation of pikemen anyway, and that their horses would be the first targets.

So... go ahead and increase the size of the pikes, maybe look at an increased breakage percentage as a 20 ft. long pole wont hold up to well to having a horse crash into it at full speed.

 

[Artoomis]

Small history lesson, which may or may not have anything to do with D&D.

Historically, pikemen stood in formation to present a solid front of pointy things pointed right at the horses. Horses are not entirely stupid, and would rear up and try to turn around before impaling themselves, resulting in the first rank of horses backtracking into the second, causing panic and confusion in the cavalry.

On the other hand, infantry units could easily break when seeing the horses charge them - especially heavy cavalry. Very scary.

Either way it was rare to charge directly into a well-trained pike formation. Such a move was, essentially, a rather high-stakes game of chicken. The more effective military leaders of old used cavalry to oppose the enemy's cavalry and to attack into infantry flanks.

Also historically, no one soldier could really stand up to a mounted knight - the advantage of heavy armor on a well-trained horse was too much to overcome in individual combat. (This is considering hand-to-hand weapons only, not missle weapons. That's a whole different discussion.)

The typical tactic for foot soldier to mounted soldier combat would be to unseat the mounted combatant by any means possible.

The typical tactic for two mounted opponents would be rider to rider, with an attempt to NOT hurt the horse - trained horses were quite valuable.

D&D Comments:

With all that in mind, charging a pike formation in D&D would be quite deadly for the horse - it would take at least two readied attacks plus at least one attack of opportunity, perhaps more. You can set a Halberd vs. a charge - that's 6d10 potential damage, at least. This is realistic - you face a really good chance of getting your mount killed if you charge in against prepared pike-type weapons. This is against only two prepared pikemen standing side-by-side. If you add a rank behind them and charge, you are looking an another 4d10 from readied actions.

This looks okay to me. A single pikeman probably dies, multiple prepared pikemen probably kill the horse. I see no reason to change anything.

 

[Zhure]

Just a note that halberds don't have reach in 3e.

I agree that a horsemen attacking a wall of fighters with reach weapons is going to die if they are of equal level and have readied actions. The horseman probably faces 3 readied attacks (one probably a disarm), and many of those attacks will be doubled against charging creatures.

I like using a "hedgehog" array of...

Guisarme (trip)
Longspear (doubled vs charge)
Ranseur (disarm)

... alternating between each weapon. Thus, anyone charging the hedgehog gets double damage from the longspear, disarmed by the ranseur, and tripped by the guisarme if the target if afoot, or damaged if they are mounted. The guisarme attack is resolved first, because prone targets are easier to hit for the disarm and the damage from the longspear.

Anyone closing without a reach weapon, like a lance, takes ANOTHER iteration of the same sort of attacks, as the second rank is identical in composition to the first.

The hedgehog is three layers deep. The third layer is identical to the first two, but have eadied actions to attack anyone tumbling and if the fight goes badly for the front rank, they can step up to take over the front positions replacing fallen comrades.

Tower shields wielders are the next layer of the hedgehog (who can rush to the front if confronted with area effect attacks like fireballs), then any clerical healers. Finally missiliers, artillery (mages) and bards make up the center of the pack, as well as a high level fighter type to direct traffic and take care of break-ins.

Greg

 

[Plane Sailing]

A horse has a face of 5 ft x 10ft (1 square x 2 squares) and the rider sits on the back square. This is what it's stated in the books.

I notice that in the PHB p138 the actual sentence says "For simplicity, assume that you occupy the back part of the horse".

I prefer a different assumption I assume that the warrior occupies the front part of the horse because (a) he is leaning forwards into the attack rather than leaning backwards away from it (b) it makes a whole range of AoO situations much more simple to adjudicate.

You might want to consider trying this out - I mention it since the PHB statement is just saying "assume", which makes it sound as though they didn't particularly think through the implications of "front or back", and considered them to be completely equivalent so you might as well pick one at random!

Of course, many people will want to stick with the "letter of the law" here, and that is fine. I just wanted to mention an interesting solution which can arise from within the spirit of the law.

Cheers

 

[gpetruc]

The "hedgeog" seems cool; I'll maybe use it for very well trained militias.

About the tactics: If I decide that the pikemen hide their pikes in the tall grass and raise them immediatly before the charge (like in Bravehart or in the MtG card "Pikemen") how could I handle this in the D&D rules ?
I'll say:
- The pikemen ready the action "When the horse is at reach I raise the pike".
- The rider and the horse must make a spot DC 15 to notice the pikes (DC 20 if only wooden, they don't shine, but in that case they deal only 1d6 damage, crit x2 and have a 30% chance of breaking on a successful hit)
- If you fail your mount needs a reflex save (DC 15) or you a Ride check (DC 20) to stop the mount.
- otherwise you get the AoO from the pikemen (but not the readied attack unless the pikemen have QuickDraw and so they can ready "Quickdraw the pike and hit the charging guy")

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Pikemen and Cavalry

I prefer a different assumption I assume that the warrior occupies the front part of the horse because (a) he is leaning forwards into the attack rather than leaning backwards away from it (b) it makes a whole range of AoO situations much more simple to adjudicate.

Um, what sort of AoO situations? The only thing I can think of is that the horse is first to suck up the damage from an opponent directly in front, which seems reasonable to me.