Pinned by multiple grapplers?

Sagiro · Jun 28, 2005

This came up in a game some time ago. I've checked the PH and can't find a definitive answer.

The question is simply: can someone be pinned by two distinct grapplers, such that he has to break each pin separately to escape?

Thanks,

-Sagiro

Len · Jun 28, 2005

That depends. Was it your alter ego they were grappling?

Len · Jun 28, 2005

Seriously: I think two characters can both pin a third - I don't see anything that says they can't.

But I'm not sure exactly how you go about breaking free from that. You have to break the pin before you can break out of the grapple. If you're pinned twice, does that work the same as breaking out of a grapple by multiple opponents? (i.e. make one grapple check opposed by each opponent) What if you break one opponent's pin but not the other's? What do you do next?

Storyteller01 · Jun 28, 2005

Len said:
Seriously: I think two characters can both pin a third - I don't see anything that says they can't.

Ever watch COPS? Three- and Five-on-one grapples are pretty common...

Isn't there rules for this in the DMG somewhere? Something about smaller races massing on a single target?

Len · Jun 28, 2005

There are rules for multiple grapplers, but they don't talk about multi-pinning specifically.

Sagiro · Jun 28, 2005

Len said:
Seriously: I think two characters can both pin a third - I don't see anything that says they can't.

But I'm not sure exactly how you go about breaking free from that. You have to break the pin before you can break out of the grapple. If you're pinned twice, does that work the same as breaking out of a grapple by multiple opponents? (i.e. make one grapple check opposed by each opponent) What if you break one opponent's pin but not the other's? What do you do next?

That's why I asked the question.

It's clear that you can be grappled by multiple foes. The PH is quite clear that you can't escape a grapple unless you beat all your enemies in opposed grapple checks. But if you can be pinned by multiple opponents, you get into weird cases where you're pinned by one guy, but merely grappled by another guy. Are you allowed to attack the guy who doesn't have you pinned? Heck, can you pin that guy? I'd assume that "no" is the answer to these questions, since if one foe has you pinned, you're technically "held immobile." But the rules are muddy, and lack specificity on the point.

-Sagiro

Storyteller01 · Jun 28, 2005

Sagiro said:
That's why I asked the question. It's clear that you can be grappled by multiple foes. The PH is quite clear that you can't escape a grapple unless you beat all your enemies in opposed grapple checks. But if you can be pinned by multiple opponents, you get into weird cases where you're pinned by one guy, but merely grappled by another guy. Are you allowed to attack the guy who doesn't have you pinned? Heck, can you pin that guy? I'd assume that "no" is the answer to these questions, since if one foe has you pinned, you're technically "held immobile." But the rules are muddy, and lack specificity on the point.

-Sagiro

You could say that if one successfully pins, all have you pinned. Then work from there.

frankthedm · Jun 29, 2005

I say each pins you individually, with a circumstance bonus to the opposed roll if victim is pinned by another [if one does not already exist]. In 3.5 a pin only lasts for a round so you have to keep the pin going.

Coredump · Jun 29, 2005

I say that they all grapple, but only one pins you.

You need to break out of the pin before being able to do anything else, and I might give your opponent a bonus from having others assisting.

So, you are grappling 4 people.
One of them pins you.
You cannot attack any of them. First you do a grapple check with the "pinner", and he gets a +2-6 on the check (DM figure it out...) *IF* you break the pin, then you can try and outgrapple all 4 to get out of the grapple.

Quickleaf · Jun 30, 2005

I would rule each opponent who is grappling you adds a +2 bonus (as per Aid Another) to one of their fellow's pin checks. I think it is reasonable to allow 2 people to pin a Medium-sized opponent (think wishbone

), and more for larger opponents.

If you want to simulate a large number of grapplers, such as a mob, I would suggest this special ability:

Clutching Hands (Ex): Any creature that begins its turn with the mob in its space must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or is considered to be grappling. The save DC is Constitution-based. Any creature failing the save is grappled, and the mob gets a grapple of opportunity against such an opponent on the next round. The mob, however, cannot be pinned. In all opposed grapple tests, the mob gets a +10 bonus for its large numbers. Escaping the grapple requires winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. Your party can come to your aid to help you escape, sacrificing all actions that round to free you. If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to the mob. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier + Party aid bonus (equal to 2 per helper + net Strength modifier of helpers)