Pinpointing area spells

[KarinsDad]

Hmm, I was just reminded of an argument one of my players used to sway me once upon a time. He reminded me of how adept he'd become at aiming Area of Effect spells in RealTime Video Games(Neverwinter Nights, Warcraft/World of Warcraft, etc) with pinpoint accuracy (Which, granted, he's very good at), and asked why it should be any different for the mage to be just as good. Presumably the mage, who's basing his LIFE around his magic, should be as good a shot as some guy playing a video game, eh?

Not a very good argument.

Just because video games are not very plausible does not mean that a FRPG should not be very plausible. Video games are limited by what is coded within them and players can get real good with them. FRPGs do not have that type of limitation. Nearly anything can happen in a FRPG.

The plausibility problem is one of precision. Even in real life with laser guided missiles and such, friendly fire does occur.

Why should a FRPG be immune to unintentional friendly fire?

It doesn't matter how much the Wizard bases his life around magic. It's difficult beyond a few feet to accurately judge distance to a location. It's more difficult to judge distance from that location to multiple targets in the vicinity of that location. How does the PC Wizard know that the PC Fighter is 8.6 feet to the right of the big rock, hence, he should target his Fireball 11.4+ feat to the left of the big rock. In the chaos of combat, how does the Wizard know this? Let alone when casting fireballs into mid-air where there aren't even any points of reference.

And why is it that the Wizard can miss with his Scorching Ray, but be 100% precise with his Fireball? Shouldn't the Wizard who bases his life around magic be 100% precise with Scorching Ray and never miss an opponent.

I mean, the opponent is standing right there! How can the Wizard miss?


There are no rules (TMK) that indicate that players should be able to measure out precise distances and use templates to determine exact area of effect before selecting the target grid intersection. In fact, the rules indicate the opposite:

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects.

 

[SlagMortar]

I agree that it can be fun to have a little lack of precision and it definitely makes for some tense moments in combat. I also tend to play in very large groups where we all get together for a one shot so not everyone is highly familiar with their characters and anything that slows down combat is bad. Still, I think KD bolded the wrong part of the rules quote.

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects.

The rules seem clear on this point, but remember the rules are guidelines. If doing something a little different increases the fun, then doing something different is the right thing.

It sounds like the OP's concern was the amount of time the taken to cast the spell. Make sure the solution addresses that concern. As another poster said, adding randomness may make the player take longer to decide where to cast which spell.

 

[werk]

He reminded me of how adept he'd become at aiming Area of Effect spells in RealTime Video Games(Neverwinter Nights, Warcraft/World of Warcraft, etc) with pinpoint accuracy (Which, granted, he's very good at), and asked why it should be any different for the mage to be just as good.

Great opportunity to explain the difference between digital and analog.

 

[KarinsDad]

Still, I think KD bolded the wrong part of the rules quote.

The rules seem clear on this point, but remember the rules are guidelines.

I agree 100% on that bolded portion as well.

The player selects the origin point. No doubt about it. But, not with a compass and straightedge and ruler and template and GPS.

 

[Jemal]

Not a very good argument.
Just because video games are not very plausible does not mean that a FRPG should not be very plausible. Video games are limited by what is coded within them and players can get real good with them. FRPGs do not have that type of limitation. Nearly anything can happen in a FRPG.

The plausibility problem is one of precision. Even in real life with laser guided missiles and such, friendly fire does occur.

Why should a FRPG be immune to unintentional friendly fire?

The video game question IS very similar.. You can't measure out the radius, you don't have a glowing template in all games, you pick an area and fire, usually in a second or so. (In D&D the mage has ~6 seconds to place and cast his spell). If a player can get used to the spells enough to know "if i shoot it THIS far away from guyX, but slightly closer to guyB I'll avoid hitting guy X while hitting Guy B", then why can't a mage?

The rules say you pick an intersection. If you can figure out which intersection by the time your turn comes around, why can't you fire at it?
I'm not saying that they should be measuring to the centimeter all the time, using Straightedge + Calculator or whatever you've said, but for those of you using a grid, it's not exactly hard to look at a map and once you're used to the area of effect of a certain spell, know where to place it. It becomes second nature, just like it would for the mage.

It doesn't matter how much the Wizard bases his life around magic. It's difficult beyond a few feet to accurately judge distance to a location. It's more difficult to judge distance from that location to multiple targets in the vicinity of that location. How does the PC Wizard know that the PC Fighter is 8.6 feet to the right of the big rock, hence, he should target his Fireball 11.4+ feat to the left of the big rock. In the chaos of combat, how does the Wizard know this? Let alone when casting fireballs into mid-air where there aren't even any points of reference.

Well actually, D&D uses 5' squares, so the difference between 11 feet and 14 feet doesn't matter, meaning that you NEVER have to get down to "8.6 feet vs 11.4 feet"
And I will heartily debate you that it's hard to judge accurate distances. Most police officers can look at someone and guess their height to within an inch or two.
I know engineers who can tell me the distance between themselves and something else to within a foot, with only a second glance.
Anybody who drives a car has to judge distances. Even if they don't know the #'s in their head, they know what the distances LOOK like. they know how far away from that red light they have to hit their breaks. Really good drivers can look at a space and tell with just that one look whether they'll fit.. even if only by a few centimeters on each side.

And why is it that the Wizard can miss with his Scorching Ray, but be 100% precise with his Fireball? Shouldn't the Wizard who bases his life around magic be 100% precise with Scorching Ray and never miss an opponent.

I mean, the opponent is standing right there! How can the Wizard miss?

B/c The opponent can Dodge, just like he can try to avoid the damage from the fireball with a reflex save.

 

[Jemal]

Great opportunity to explain the difference between digital and analog.

I'm all ears.

 

[Mort]

Hmm, I was just reminded of an argument one of my players used to sway me once upon a time. He reminded me of how adept he'd become at aiming Area of Effect spells in RealTime Video Games(Neverwinter Nights, Warcraft/World of Warcraft, etc) with pinpoint accuracy (Which, granted, he's very good at), and asked why it should be any different for the mage to be just as good. Presumably the mage, who's basing his LIFE around his magic, should be as good a shot as some guy playing a video game, eh?

Funny this actually pushed me to the exact opposite conclusion.

You're friend didn't pick up the controller and immediately become a master of targeting - it probably took hours and hours of practice.

When the mage first gets fireball (or his first area affect spell) he's not going to be perfect with it, the fact that the player makes a few mistakes can simulate that. As the mage goes up in levels and presumably uses the spell more, the player will improve too just from the practice.

Now if the player proves a hopeless incompetent at targeting, but the mage has an Int of 24 and many area spells - maybe make a few allowances but otherwise having the player get better is part of the game.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Certainly, it can't be that hard to remember what the template looks like and eyeball the situation beforehand.

Also, if you're concerned about catching allies in the radius of your spells, there are several things you can do:

1) Do it anyway; rogues and monks are unlikely to be harmed, and you can help further by giving them resistances beforehand. Even the non-evaders might prefer back-scratching to being overrun.

2) Don't do it; switch to another spell that isn't going to get the PCs in it, or wait until they're out of the line of fire. Explosive Cascade, for example, can be routed around the players. Or, you can ready for when the PCs move out and then toss in covering fire.

 

[KarinsDad]

The video game question IS very similar.. You can't measure out the radius, you don't have a glowing template in all games, you pick an area and fire, usually in a second or so. (In D&D the mage has ~6 seconds to place and cast his spell). If a player can get used to the spells enough to know "if i shoot it THIS far away from guyX, but slightly closer to guyB I'll avoid hitting guy X while hitting Guy B", then why can't a mage?

I don't want to debate minutia like this, but fine. The guy playing the video game takes hours of practice before he gets it right. His PC in the video game is not good at it until he is. The guy playing DND might take hours of practice before he gets it right. His PC in the DND game is not good at it until he is. I have a player in my group that can just glance at the board and pick a decent intersection. Not always perfect, but decent. Fine. I'm just not going to allow a player to measure distances between all of the miniatures because that is a level of precision that I do not think the game designers intended, otherwise, they would have put text in the rules concerning it. They merely stated "pick an origin point".

The rules say you pick an intersection. If you can figure out which intersection by the time your turn comes around, why can't you fire at it?

A player can do this.

I'm not saying that they should be measuring to the centimeter all the time, using Straightedge + Calculator or whatever you've said, but for those of you using a grid, it's not exactly hard to look at a map and once you're used to the area of effect of a certain spell, know where to place it. It becomes second nature, just like it would for the mage.

And when the player has that level of precision skill, so does his mage. If he picks a good origin point, he does well. If he picks a poor origin point, he does not so well.

And I will heartily debate you that it's hard to judge accurate distances. Most police officers can look at someone and guess their height to within an inch or two.
I know engineers who can tell me the distance between themselves and something else to within a foot, with only a second glance.
Anybody who drives a car has to judge distances. Even if they don't know the #'s in their head, they know what the distances LOOK like. they know how far away from that red light they have to hit their breaks. Really good drivers can look at a space and tell with just that one look whether they'll fit.. even if only by a few centimeters on each side.

uh huh.

Notice what you wrote "really good drivers". I suspect that even really good drivers who try to drive a car between a space with only a few centimeters on each side extra sometimes hit the sides as well.

I suspect that you are over-exaggerating all of this. I suspect that your engineering friends cannot tell you from 50 feet away exactly how far away 12 people in a loose crowd are from each other and where exactly to place a center point so that a 20 foot effect catches certain of those people and not others. It's not just judging one distance, it is simultaneously judging multiple distances at range to get a perfect center point.

And because that would be extremely difficult to consistently and accurately do in real life in a few seconds at range, for my game it is semi-difficult to consistently and accurately do in the 3 seconds it takes to cast a spell and target it. If the player gets it right, great. I am not going to do the "target a square and roll D4 to pick the intersection optional rule" to make it random. On the other hand, the player is not going to get to measure out distances between miniatures in my game either. He gets to pick an intersection, we move on. The more area effect spells the player has to precisely target, the more skilled he gets at doing it. But, the other players are not going to help and he is not going to get a lot of time to figure it out precisely. Pick the target and go.

 

[IanB]

Why should a FRPG be immune to unintentional friendly fire?

Because it avoids player conflict. More annoying OOC fights have been started in games I've played by people hitting each other with fireballs than any other single occurence I can think of. Second place is people hitting each other with lightning bolts. And don't get me started on 1E chain lightning. Also, subjectively, the game is more fun without it.

I do things pretty much the opposite of you, it sounds like. I let players target their templates as exactly as they want, and they definitely are allowed to count out ranges and movement before they move if they like. It hasn't been overly slow.*

Rule 0 for me is "Happy players = happy DM."

*In my games, the major causes of slowdown are people who can't decide what they want to do in the first place, and people resolving full attacks at high level with two-weapon fighting and changing their power attack every round and modifiers coming and going, etc. Spell resolution is super speedy compared to that.