Piracy And Other Malfeasance

[Reynard]

I can see how some folks might find that helpful. For me, the alignment tells me how they view culture and society, and more importantly, the things they are willing to do to achieve their goals. So, if the machine isnt involved, or discipline doesn't matter in the moment, I still have a good idea of how the character will act. The bonus is it takes very very little room on a stat block or character sheet.

BIFTs fail for me because they are so specific and like a series of "raging against the machine" statements. Nobody really remembers them at the table. Since alignment is so broadly general yet well defined, it works at a quick glance and is easy to recall. Of course, I like alignment and have read over the description for years and years. Its become second hand.

Emphasis mine.

I agree with that bolded bit, which is why I think a couple descriptive terms in place is more useful. As to the bit about what they are willing to do to achieve their goals, that is an interesting idea I had not considered.

 

[Reynard]

This is more of a comment on a post from another thread that I don't want to derail:

It is okay for your EVIL EMPIRE to practice or have practiced slavery. They're evil.

 

[GrimCo]

In one of PF games, we played evil party in an evil empire. We abolished slavery on the grounds that slaves are highly inefficient workforce. Out party founded "NecroMation LTD" with moto - "With necromancy to efficiency". We had simple business model. You can sell your body for number of years after your death. We give you lump sum up front and your successors get small feel while contract is in effect. Once person dies, it's raised as undead and put to work in mines, quarries and such places that usually use slave labor. But unlike slaves, our necromatons don't need to eat, sleep, breath, don't tire and can work in hazardous conditions. Other option we offered is called "lease a grandma". As in, person leases deceased grandma/grandpa/whoever (but it needs to be legal successor to the deceased person) to us, we raise it, lease it to businesses and share profit 50/50.

Of all the evil things we did, introducing modern banking system is probably worst. Loans, mortages, operational leases, we did it all. Wanna lease that +5 sword for adventure? No problem. But if you are late in payment, all gear is enchanted to automatically teleport back to store, no matter where you are. In the middle of combat? Tough luck, you didn't pay lease, it teleports back.

 

[Reynard]

In one of PF games, we played evil party in an evil empire. We abolished slavery on the grounds that slaves are highly inefficient workforce. Out party founded "NecroMation LTD" with moto - "With necromancy to efficiency". We had simple business model. You can sell your body for number of years after your death. We give you lump sum up front and your successors get small feel while contract is in effect. Once person dies, it's raised as undead and put to work in mines, quarries and such places that usually use slave labor. But unlike slaves, our necromatons don't need to eat, sleep, breath, don't tire and can work in hazardous conditions. Other option we offered is called "lease a grandma". As in, person leases deceased grandma/grandpa/whoever (but it needs to be legal successor to the deceased person) to us, we raise it, lease it to businesses and share profit 50/50.

I can't figure out what is evil about this.

Of all the evil things we did, introducing modern banking system is probably worst. Loans, mortages, operational leases, we did it all. Wanna lease that +5 sword for adventure? No problem. But if you are late in payment, all gear is enchanted to automatically teleport back to store, no matter where you are. In the middle of combat? Tough luck, you didn't pay lease, it teleports back.

That's not evil either. Real evil would be to accrue late fees without warning until you had to give your corpse over to the necrotomaton factory.

 

[GrimCo]

Necromancy and raising undead is kind of evil if you go by default D&D standards.

No, we ran ethical business. My friend that DMed that campaign, myself and one other player all work as industrial automation engineers so it was tongue in cheek joke about our work.

 

[Lanefan]

I can't figure out what is evil about this.

I can't see much evil here either....well, other than the entire necromancy and raising-the-dead and desecration of corpses piece the whole enterprise is built around, which makes it evil to the core.

 

[aramis erak]

In general, I find alignment as faction no less problematic than as behavioral guide...
The behavioral guide only works if it's well presented to the players, and tracked well.

I found alignment tongues absurd, especially since they are magically changed when alignment did.

Hell, I hated most of the Gygaxianisms in AD&D; I liked the races, but not the level caps. I liked multiclassing, but not the implementation, preferring to simply add them together and have a single level number.

I used Paladins as fighter of level, cleric of 1/3 level, and can use a holy avenger. But I also had paladin types for CG, CE, and LE...
(My heydays for D&D were 1981-1983, 1989-1992, 1999-2001, and 2013-2018.)

The bolded is what makes me sad. The player should be able to go on playing that "black knight" archetype, wherever it leads.

I don't allow blackhearted PCs. Not in any game. (Except when running DDAL games, where I was required to allow LE PCs.)
Nor will I play in a group where there's a blackhearted PC is being allowed. I don't enjoy such in my literature consumption, either; I like oBSG and Star Trek BECAUSE they're weekly morality plays. The Vorkosiverse, ElfQuest, Pern - all have strong morality play elements. Even Starship Troopers (which I disagree with the morality being put forth) is a morality play.

The one character in a pendragon campaign who started as evil (but not to the bonus level) was allowed to reroll traits, but instead wanted to play the redemption of the character in thought and deed.

And that's before the element specific to Arthuriana... The Black Knight isn't even human in several versions. And a pretender to knighthood, in several more.

Which is largely why I've never tried to get Pirates of the Spanish Main to table.

If someone's business plan is to murder people I generally call them an assassin or a hitman or a murderer.

I generally think of Robin Hood as in a different moral category even though he is a bandit engaged in armed robbery.

For me, the important delimiter is the word "murder" - murder being an unjustified killing.

Sir Robin is, in the older editions, a knight removed from his lands by the corrupt sheriff and the Regent. As much a rebel as a thief, and a rebel against an unjust usurper. Only in certain subsets is Robin stealing from the poor... And since he's a rebel against an evil king, he's annoyingly (to me, at least) morally gray to maybe light grey.

Was it Dragonlance that had the active alignment tracking chart?

Yes. I actually used it in two axis, but making it only 6 wide per zone, so 18x18. Made it really clear when a player was headed for a change. But that was the early 1990s.

Pendragon's Traits are essentially a 13 axis alignment system... with neutral effectively being 5...15 in each.

Necromancy and raising undead is kind of evil if you go by default D&D standards.

No, we ran ethical business. My friend that DMed that campaign, myself and one other player all work as industrial automation engineers so it was tongue in cheek joke about our work.

Evil and unethical are not synonyms, but often overlap.

I've in fact used a similar schtick as the basis of an evil county in a D&D campaign... live servants were for prestige, undead for efficiency. No contracts, tho'... if you couldn't pay for importing a corpse, your loved one's body becomes a part of the unpaid workforce until the bits fall apart.

My group proceeded to have a blast dismantling the place.

 

[Voadam]

For me, the important delimiter is the word "murder"

I think it is a big distinction.

A murderous pirate I expect to be evil.

A pirate takes a bit more specifics for me to determine where I think they should fall.

 

[aramis erak]

I think it is a big distinction.

A murderous pirate I expect to be evil.

A pirate takes a bit more specifics for me to determine where I think they should fall.

Not to mention, one nation's privateer is the victim's bold pirate...

Which said, most privateers were also part-time pirates proper. With all the dark shades of grey that have kept me from running a privateer campaign... it's too slippery a slope.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't allow blackhearted PCs. Not in any game. (Except when running DDAL games, where I was required to allow LE PCs.)
Nor will I play in a group where there's a blackhearted PC is being allowed. I don't enjoy such in my literature consumption, either; I like oBSG and Star Trek BECAUSE they're weekly morality plays. The Vorkosiverse, ElfQuest, Pern - all have strong morality play elements. Even Starship Troopers (which I disagree with the morality being put forth) is a morality play.

I got tired of the whole 'morality play' thing about 50 years ago, while still in grade school.

Give me Game of Thrones anytime.