Planar Ally/Binding
- Thread starter Bad Paper
- Start date
Herremann the Wise
First Post
Hi Bad Paper,
I asked a similar question about a year ago so I have no idea where the thread actually is. However, responses were somewhat minimal and vague - these are not spells that are commonly played in games.
In terms of negotiation you have to offer something that the creature would want. With evil creatures, magical items are perhaps a little more flavourful than mere gold or platinum. However, what evil creatures really want is your soul. Offer that to them and they'll most likely do what you want. The book of vile darkness had distilled pain as a currency which would also provide leverage in a negotiation. However a cheaper method is fear. If your level is significantly above theirs, you can most likely cower them into doing what you want or destroying them if they don't do it. If they try this though with creatures with connections, then there may be some issues. Revenge is a fine motive for a fiend.
If you want to read perhaps one of the funniest negotiations in terms of a binding spell then you can go no further than Sepulchraves story hour. On Cheiromancer's compiled thread, it is at the end of the 5th post. I could not more highly recommend something to read along these lines. If you're happy with second best though, you can always try out my own story hour and the three most recent posts.
As far as Planar Ally is concerned, this is a spell I have never liked in its book form. The thought of offering gold to a celestial seems preposterous. The way how I prefer to run it is that the Ally is called, and the PCs ask of it a favour. However, before they receive that favour, they must complete a service or quest for the Celestial. This seems far more honourable, interesting and less abusable if the party has gold coming out of their posteriors.
Anyway, hopefully a few extra people will respond.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
I asked a similar question about a year ago so I have no idea where the thread actually is. However, responses were somewhat minimal and vague - these are not spells that are commonly played in games.
In terms of negotiation you have to offer something that the creature would want. With evil creatures, magical items are perhaps a little more flavourful than mere gold or platinum. However, what evil creatures really want is your soul. Offer that to them and they'll most likely do what you want. The book of vile darkness had distilled pain as a currency which would also provide leverage in a negotiation. However a cheaper method is fear. If your level is significantly above theirs, you can most likely cower them into doing what you want or destroying them if they don't do it. If they try this though with creatures with connections, then there may be some issues. Revenge is a fine motive for a fiend.
If you want to read perhaps one of the funniest negotiations in terms of a binding spell then you can go no further than Sepulchraves story hour. On Cheiromancer's compiled thread, it is at the end of the 5th post. I could not more highly recommend something to read along these lines. If you're happy with second best though, you can always try out my own story hour and the three most recent posts.
As far as Planar Ally is concerned, this is a spell I have never liked in its book form. The thought of offering gold to a celestial seems preposterous. The way how I prefer to run it is that the Ally is called, and the PCs ask of it a favour. However, before they receive that favour, they must complete a service or quest for the Celestial. This seems far more honourable, interesting and less abusable if the party has gold coming out of their posteriors.
Anyway, hopefully a few extra people will respond.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
moritheil
First Post
I side with Herremann on this one. Flavor-wise, I rule that the players have to deliver various magic items to the celestial that happen to be equivalent to the agreed-upon amount of gp. A celestial may not really want gold, but the means to arm the forces of good, provide food for the poor, etc. are likely to appeal to them.
Also, a party really should not have gold in great excess of its recommended wealth level, for precisely this reason (abuse of things that cost money).
Also, a party really should not have gold in great excess of its recommended wealth level, for precisely this reason (abuse of things that cost money).
Herremann the Wise said:
Thanee
First Post
Bad Paper said:
Planar Ally gives appropriate rewards, we also use those for Planar Binding, unless you want to force the trapped creature, of course.
We also don't use "just gold", however, but rather appropriate items, like pieces of art, etc. Or just other services, quests, etc. The gold is just the estimate of the worth of the service the called creature is asked to perform.
Bye
Thanee
Amal Shukup
First Post
Bad Paper said:
Well, the Binding Spells tend to be of the 'do this or else' variety... They're 'called' so they can be destroyed and threats to do so carry weight. Simply imprisoning them for a time (and there are spells/items that make that really possible) can be really inconvenient too. Plus good old abuse and torture... Bribes too (cash or things the critter might like - see below), but the big factor is the opposed Charisma Check (always thought it ought to be Diplomacy or Intimidate, myself - a skill that can be improved)
How much of a bribe? Well, the Planar Ally spell gives approximate cash guidelines. Go from there.
In either case, whether bribing Bound critters or offering exchange to Allies, try to imagine who the critter is and what the critter might want:
- An Angel might want wealth or services donated to a nearby church or worthy cause
- A Devil might want you to sacrifice a captive, or destroy a holy object. Maybe all he wants is a free hour (on the caster's Plane) to take care of a little 'personal business' (law of unintended consequences might rear its ugly head there though, if the terms aren't well worked out).
- Lots of beings want Information: a newly researched spell, say? Or the location of a vast treasure or key artifact...
...Or the reverse: a Devil whose name is too readily found by would be summoners in an Arcane Library might perform a service in exchange for that book being destroyed...
- A Deva servant of a deity dedicated to art, song and poetry might perform a service - literally - for a song (perform Check DC 35 or better) or an original poem/song written as a gift...
- A Fire Elemental might want the opportunity to set a really big fire...
- One cool idea is to have 'Tokens' or 'Markers' that are associated with particular extraplanar creatures (symbolizing earlier debts these creatures owe). These could be purchased or found in ancient treasure hoards... Identifying/using them would require research and/or appropriate Knowledge Checks. A summoner would collect these and exchange them for services from their owner (or their rivals... Hmmn. That's fun...)
- A Devil might want you to sacrifice a captive, or destroy a holy object. Maybe all he wants is a free hour (on the caster's Plane) to take care of a little 'personal business' (law of unintended consequences might rear its ugly head there though, if the terms aren't well worked out).
- Lots of beings want Information: a newly researched spell, say? Or the location of a vast treasure or key artifact...
...Or the reverse: a Devil whose name is too readily found by would be summoners in an Arcane Library might perform a service in exchange for that book being destroyed...
- A Deva servant of a deity dedicated to art, song and poetry might perform a service - literally - for a song (perform Check DC 35 or better) or an original poem/song written as a gift...
- A Fire Elemental might want the opportunity to set a really big fire...
- One cool idea is to have 'Tokens' or 'Markers' that are associated with particular extraplanar creatures (symbolizing earlier debts these creatures owe). These could be purchased or found in ancient treasure hoards... Identifying/using them would require research and/or appropriate Knowledge Checks. A summoner would collect these and exchange them for services from their owner (or their rivals... Hmmn. That's fun...)
Selecting critters for tasks they're suited for and are likely to enjoy helps keep costs down and negotiations short: A demon might agree to lay waste to a middle school just for the asking and a little flattery... Similarly an Angel - even a bound one - might agree to rescue a lost child or visit a deity's wrath upon an evildoer simply because it's the sort of thing Angels like to do...
Planar 'Allies', like the name implies, can be ongoing NPCs or even friends: A PC in my party has an established and ongoing relationship with a Hound Archon servant of his deity. Initially there was an exchange of wealth (a surplus Magic greatsword for the Hound to use) in exchange for his help in a really tough battle. Later, after the Archon had died (calling spells have risks), the PC voluntarily footed the bill for a True Res (just before 3.5 made it really 'spensive) and basically got to write his own ticket thereafter. There have been other 'gifts' offered since - mostly buffing items, which REALLY serve the PC just as much: his Summon Monster V is now a whole LOT better (yielding a well-equipped Hound Archon...). They're basically friends now...
A'Mal
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