Planar binding fun

[jasin]

I've been creating a Sor13 in case my Mnk3/Ftr10 gets killed in City of
the Spider Queen and I've only just realized how much fun planar binding
can be.

It's like planar ally, only you don't need to pay, you get your own
choice of minion, and you don't have to play nice with them. W00t!

A planar binder Sor13 might almost have a leader-cohort relationship
built up with a creature such as a trumpet archon: whenever you go out
on a dangerous adventure, you call him. If your adventures tend to be
typical D&D evil-bashing, he shouldn't even be too mad afterwards for
your forcing him to come along you.

And if a trumpet archon isn't enough, cast planar binding again, call
another one. And another... until you have as many of these flying spell
resistant energy resistant outsider ECL 20 warrior-clerics as you need.

But there are some pretty twinkish things that can be done, even above
and beyond merely building an army of minions. For example, summon a
glabrezu and demand that he cast his 1/month wish for you for his
freedom. His Cha bonus is +5, while a Sor13 might have +7 and a circlet
of persuasion, for +10. That's about 75% chance to persuade the demon on
the first day!

So at 13th-level, you get a wish at the cost of a few sorcerer spell
slots and a pissed off glabrezu, who can't even plane shift to get
revenge on his onw. And if he manages, it's a CR 13 monster, nothing you
and your party shouldn't be able to handle.

But the really twinkish part is that you're able to do this a couple of
times *each day*. If you don't ask for a specific individual, but just
call "a glabrezu", you should get a different one each time, and
hopefully the new

Sure, you can build quite an army of enemies that way, but it's 2-3
wishes per day for a 13th-level character, at no material/XP cost
whatsoever. And you have an army of archons to defend you...

So that this wouldn't be just a rant, a couple of questions: any fun uses (or abuses!) of planar binding/ally you have experienced? Any house rules to prevent abuses? Any good non-obvious choices of monsters to call?

 

[Rkhet]

Call up a lamp archon with lesser planar binding. It can cast Aid at will - which gives you 1d8+3 temporary hit points for three minutes. "That's peanuts!" you might say, but consider this: with temporary hitpoints, if you are below full HP when it wears off, it stays with you. So, the lamp archon can essentially heal the entire party at the rate of 1d8+3 every three minutes, per person. And it can keep this up for as long as you could possibly want. Your cleric will only ever need to cure wounds in combat.

The entire drawback, afterwards, consists of a pissed off CR2 creature.

 

[IcyCool]

There are a couple of things you'll need to realize.

1. You should probably make sure your sorcerer has Magic Circle Against Evil (for summoning up Glabrezus) and Magic Circle Against Good (for archons). (That's two 3rd-level spells pretty much wasted for a sorcerer). You should also pick up Dimensional Anchor. Even with those precautions, the Archons have a pretty good chance of escaping your control. If that happens with a Trumpet Archon, you can probably expect to be diminished in power (bestow curse -6 cha or Mark of Justice), or blinded (blindness/deafness), or Gaes'd ("You shall not call myself or any of my bretheren for such minor mundane matters again.")

2. Forcing an evil creature to grant you a wish comes with a whole mess of problems. But go ahead, give it a try.

 

[werk]

Yeah, I don't know why you are only worried about the summoned creature...don't they have friends/bosses?

If you are able to actually pull this off against your DM, multiple times, he's a pushover.

 

[IcyCool]

So that this wouldn't be just a rant, a couple of questions: any fun uses (or abuses!) of planar binding/ally you have experienced? Any house rules to prevent abuses? Any good non-obvious choices of monsters to call?

Check out The Tales of Wyre story hour. Mostin the Metagnostic regularly binds demons/devils and does ... interesting things to them. He's used Trap the Soul to eliminate one of Grazzt's Balor lieutenants, used Binding to keep a Marilith general's head in a transparent adamantine jar for tactical military advice, and called up a Lillend to be the musical entertainment for a party he threw. I believe in the latest installment, Mostin has three Dukes of Hell trapped in his basement.

I see the planar binding spells as plot devices and demonstrations of power more than ways to attempt to create an army of unwilling foot soldiers or get free wishes.

 

[Thanee]

I've been creating a Sor13 in case my Mnk3/Ftr10 gets killed in City of
the Spider Queen and I've only just realized how much fun planar binding
can be.

Heh. My Sorceress in that adventure has the spell since 12th level, along with Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchor, of course. A pretty hefty investment for a sorcerer, but it grants a lot of options; and especially since our cleric died and got replaced by a fighter/rogue, we really, really need that spell.

It's like planar ally, only you don't need to pay, you get your own
choice of minion, and you don't have to play nice with them. W00t!

Sure, you do not have to play nice with them, but then you might get a few extra enemies.

A planar binder Sor13 might almost have a leader-cohort relationship
built up with a creature such as a trumpet archon: whenever you go out
on a dangerous adventure, you call him. If your adventures tend to be
typical D&D evil-bashing, he shouldn't even be too mad afterwards for
your forcing him to come along you.

I usually call celestials and do not force them, but offer them a reasonable compensation (akin to what Planar Ally suggests).

But there are some pretty twinkish things that can be done, even above
and beyond merely building an army of minions. For example, summon a
glabrezu and demand that he cast his 1/month wish for you for his
freedom.

As a DM I would simply say no to that one, using the guidelines for summoned monsters (yes, I know they are technically called and not summoned).

But the really twinkish part is that you're able to do this a couple of
times *each day*.

Don't forget, that the called creature gets a save, and there is always a 5% chance, that it breaks free, when you demand something off it.

So that this wouldn't be just a rant, a couple of questions: any fun uses (or abuses!) of planar binding/ally you have experienced?

No, I use it in a fairly reasonable way.

Any house rules to prevent abuses?

Mostly the above-mentioned summoning restriction, that a called creature will never agree to use abilities, which cost or normally (as a spell) cost XP.

Any good non-obvious choices of monsters to call?

Celestials: Astral Deva, Trumpet Archon, Ghaele Eladrin, Leonal Guardinal. All are pretty good.

Bye
Thanee

 

[jasin]

There are a couple of things you'll need to realize.

1. You should probably make sure your sorcerer has Magic Circle Against Evil (for summoning up Glabrezus) and Magic Circle Against Good (for archons). (That's two 3rd-level spells pretty much wasted for a sorcerer). You should also pick up Dimensional Anchor.

Right. Dismissal, too; it isn't necessary, but it's both useful and in theme for a binder. All this puts a real cramp in the sorcerer's style outside of outsider calling, and is one of the reasons why I don't think planar binding comes out too overpowered.

Even with those precautions, the Archons have a pretty good chance of escaping your control.

How so? They have a decent chance to resist being called by making the Will save, but then you just cast the spell again, and once they're called...

In a magic circle against good with a calling diagram and a dimensional anchor, he can't use SR, he can't attack outside the circle, he can't use dimensional travel to escape, the Cha check DC to escape is 33 (Sor13 with Cha 24) so he'd need Cha 36 to have any chance of making it. The only way he can escape is if the caller rolls 1 on a negotiation check, which I guess is will happen every so often, but is hardly what I'd call a "pretty good chance".

If that happens with a Trumpet Archon, you can probably expect to be diminished in power (bestow curse -6 cha or Mark of Justice), or blinded (blindness/deafness), or Gaes'd ("You shall not call myself or any of my bretheren for such minor mundane matters again.")

Nice. Much more interesting, playable and appropriate than "Oh, yeah? Well, the archon brings all his planter mommy and solar daddy and they kick your ass, and don't you ever cast planar binding in my campaign!" which was, basically, the response I got from someone on the WotC boards.

2. Forcing an evil creature to grant you a wish comes with a whole mess of problems. But go ahead, give it a try.

Anything particular you're thinking of? Other than "you piss him off, he comes to get you (possibly with 3d10 of his buddies)"?

In any case, the glabrezu wish trick is outright abusive and I wouldn't allow it as a DM. I'd either house rule it (glabrezu's wish serves to tempt mortals, so you could say that you first need to allow the glabrezu to tempt you into performing an act of depravity before the glabrezu can grant you a wish, even if he wants to), or warn the player that I'll pull the 3d10 buddies trick on him, and then do it.

But celestial/fiend helper 24-7 is kind of neat, I think. Borderline overpowered, perhaps, but it does tie up your spells known something fierce, so it's actually almost an "outsider character, sorcerer cohort" kind of setup for the player. It's also vulnerable to dismissal/banishment: last time we got TPK-ed in CotSQ after the vampire cleric banished my cleric's archon planar ally.

 

[IcyCool]

In a magic circle against good with a calling diagram and a dimensional anchor, he can't use SR, he can't attack outside the circle, he can't use dimensional travel to escape, the Cha check DC to escape is 33 (Sor13 with Cha 24) so he'd need Cha 36 to have any chance of making it. The only way he can escape is if the caller rolls 1 on a negotiation check, which I guess is will happen every so often, but is hardly what I'd call a "pretty good chance".

Good point, I had forgotten about the calling diagram boost to the DC, so he'll just get his will save. So pay no attention to the "good chance" bit.

Nice. Much more interesting, playable and appropriate than "Oh, yeah? Well, the archon brings all his planter mommy and solar daddy and they kick your ass, and don't you ever cast planar binding in my campaign!" which was, basically, the response I got from someone on the WotC boards.

Well, that's your own fault for visiting the WotC boards.

As to the Archon doing something to you, I doubt that it would happen right away. It would most likely listen to whatever proposal you have. Continued use/abuse would lead to word getting spread around though. Also, keep in mind that these beings aren't just sitting around waiting to be called. They are most likely very busy doing the work of their deity.

Just make sure you don't roll a one on that Charisma check!:

Sorcerer: "I call forth from the Celestial Heavens a Trumpet Archon!"
*Archon appears in the summoning circle, glances around quickly with wide eyes, and then narrows its eyes at the Sorcerer.*
Archon: "For what reason have you called me mortal?"
Sorcerer: "Yeah, me and my buddies are going to go whack this evil necromancer and take his stuff. We'd like a heavy hitter for support, so I'm bringing you along."
Archon: "I am Zephyriel, messenger for his divine radiance, servant of the Golden One. I am to deliver a message of utmost importance. Every moment you delay me, more innocents may suffer, and you wish me to be your MEATSHIELD?"
Sorcerer: "Pretty much. Oh, and if you're a good birdie, I'll make a donation to Pelor's church, how's that deal sound?"

Anything particular you're thinking of? Other than "you piss him off, he comes to get you (possibly with 3d10 of his buddies)"?

In any case, the glabrezu wish trick is outright abusive and I wouldn't allow it as a DM. I'd either house rule it (glabrezu's wish serves to tempt mortals, so you could say that you first need to allow the glabrezu to tempt you into performing an act of depravity before the glabrezu can grant you a wish, even if he wants to), or warn the player that I'll pull the 3d10 buddies trick on him, and then do it.

Well, it being a creature borne of evil itself, it'll do its best to twist your wish, and it will succeed in some way. I like your idea though. But the corruption would have to be pretty hefty IMO.

Rather than outright banning it, I'd much rather let my players know that it is a bad idea. If they still want to try it, they get both barrels (and maybe something good out of it) and Demons and Devils still retain their feel of tricksy evilness.

And lesser fiends are always servants of more powerful fiends. If you meddle in their affairs enough, they will take notice and act.

But celestial/fiend helper 24-7 is kind of neat, I think. Borderline overpowered, perhaps, but it does tie up your spells known something fierce, so it's actually almost an "outsider character, sorcerer cohort" kind of setup for the player. It's also vulnerable to dismissal/banishment: last time we got TPK-ed in CotSQ after the vampire cleric banished my cleric's archon planar ally.

Continually forcing celestials and fiends into service will, after time, become noticed and most likely be ... unappreciated.