Planescape, Oathbound, Star Trek? Kingdom Hearts?

[I'm A Banana]

Creativity, the maxim goes, isn't about creating new things. It's about using old things in new ways. And I consistently find my favorite settings are those that "consider yes" to nearly any option under the sun, and those that manage to create a unique synthesis out of this kitchen sink approach. We all know that this approach can go wrong, but there's a lot of examples of how it's done very, very well.

So I'd like to gather some information on what makes these settings "work." And, the other side of the coin, what makes them not work. How they might have some minor hiccups, and the major hiccups that have stopped similar settings.

The two that first leap to my brain are Planescape and Oathbound.

Planescape can take the entire mutliverse of 2e D&D and turn it to a specific tone and mood. Ravenloft was no longer just horror, if it occured in Planescape it could be about horror and belief and the nature of evil and how a limited obsession corrupts you (for instance). The 2e metasetting contained a host of historically influenced prime worlds, which means that you could have a toga-wearing worshipper of zeus and a horned-helmed worshipper of odin and both of them would be wearing full plate and exploring the philosophical impact of the Sign of One organization. Fiends operate shops, celestials broker arms deals, etc.

What makes Planescape work? How can you be an Egyptian human and an outcast modron and a halfling in the vein of Bilbo Baggins and a ninja from the Far East and a native american hunter and have not just a cohesive story, but a dramatic feel, a unifying goal, and, heck, how do they even find each other and get together?

Spoiler

my theory: sigil

.

I think about literary or cinematic examples. Star Trek has a whole universe to explore, how do they make everything distinctly "Star Trek?" Oathbound pulls in creatures and lands from everywhere, how does Oathbound give it an Oathbound feel that trumps their origins? Kingdom Hearts takes Disney characters and Final Fantasy characters and makes something new: how does it do that? How does it co-opt these ideas for its own purpose? Does Eberron succeed, trying to fit all of core 3e under one sky? Does Ptolus attempt this?

Feel free to put in examples of other media, or campaigns you've run or been in. But angle it to how it can work, how a creative setting can co-opt such diverse elements and unify them in a story unlike anything they could tell themselves that is uniquely colored by that setting. How would that party above be different in Eberron and Planescape and Oathbound and maybe Ptolus?

What settings do you know of that almost never say "no," and still manage to make the open-ended content reflect some sort of unique, core feel?

 

[Ulric]

This is a really good topic...and one I'm going to have to think about more.

I think that some of the universality of the settings you've mentioned has to do with our already established cultural ideas related to 1) the afterlife i.e. Planescape (because, hey, everybody, regardless of background, belief, and mannerisms dies) and 2) arena, battle-like settings like Oathbound being inclusive because of the numerous, unending battle of cultures and belief systems we are already used to here on planet earth. That's why these settings work as far as universality...it is in the very nature of the settings.

But how do they do this while still feeling unique? I think that has a lot to do with their visual and kinestic particulars.

The combination of those particulars and the universality working for the reasons I just mentioned is what makes the settings work in their totallity. Or, in normal speak, that's what makes them so damn cool. Those are two settings I really love.

 

[FireLance]

The first idea that comes to mind is the idea of a hub and spoke model of reality. This is the model that I see operating in Planescape, Spelljammer, Star Trek and Kingdom Hearts. Individual spokes are self-contained worlds with particular themes, and are unconnected with worlds in the other spokes. The hub is connected with all the spokes, and can draw on elements from any of the spokes. In addition, although those in the hub know of the various spoke worlds, knowledge of the hub is not widespread, and is limited to no more than a small number of people in each of the spoke worlds. In such a setting, the PCs start out in the hub, or eventually come to know of it.

The main problem with the hub and spoke model is explaining why the spoke worlds are largely ignorant of each other. Settings that work provide a compelling reason why. In Planescape, the hub and spoke is almost literal - links (portals) between Sigil and the spoke worlds are supposed to be more common than direct links between individual spoke worlds, so going from one spoke world to another generally meant going through Sigil. Star Trek has its Prime Directive of non-interference with worlds that had not developed warp technology, and in Kingdom Hearts, travel between worlds was simply not possible before the Heartless weakened the barriers between them.

 

[Voadam]

Oathbound pulls in creatures and lands from everywhere, how does Oathbound give it an Oathbound feel that trumps their origins?

1 the sensory overload aspect of the realm, the DM is supposed to describe all senses and emotional impact as being more intense there.

2 Oathbound is generally a high powered, high fantasy genre setting, with campaign factors driving multiple powerful beings into conflicts constantly. In other campaigns there is often a different balance where the norm is more filled with normal peasant background people. People can come from these other settings but they will feel that things are different.

3 Lots of races, humanity is not so dominant or prevalent as in other settings. Noncore 3rd party exotic races (winged tiger men, silver metal men, really tough goblinoids, etc.) have a stronger central presence in the setting and as PC options than in most settings.

 

[WayneLigon]

What makes Planescape work? How can you be an Egyptian human and an outcast modron and a halfling in the vein of Bilbo Baggins and a ninja from the Far East and a native american hunter and have not just a cohesive story, but a dramatic feel, a unifying goal, and, heck, how do they even find each other and get together?

Spoiler

my theory: sigil

.

To me, Planescape never 'said yes' and I've never been able to understand the undying love it seems to have spawned (my theory is that most people loved the wonderful and evocative art and made themselves believe they had a setting that could actually work as written). It probably was nice when you hit 8-12th level but seldom did we ever have 2E characters get that high. The Factions never made a big impression with me. I read most of them and had a hard time accepting anyone with any sense would follow any of the tenets. It felt too 'shoe-horned', as well.

I absolutely am in love with the idea of planes-hopping and world-hopping, so I've never been quite able to get past why I never liked the setting.

Yes, the idea was fascinating that you could stumble through a tavern door and wind up not in a tavern but on the 56th plane of the Abyss. OK, that's fun for about ten minutes until you realize you're all 4th level and have no hope of even challenging most of the creatures you're going to meet.

So, how did other people make Planescape 'say yes' and have meaningful adventures in it?

 

[Doug McCrae]

I absolutely am in love with the idea of planes-hopping and world-hopping, so I've never been quite able to get past why I never liked the setting.

I'm the exact same, love dimension travelling (especially Michael Moorcock), hate Planescape.

 

[timbannock]

I've used Planescape's tropes in every campaign I've ever run for D&D, though have yet to do a hardcore, Planes-only campaign. It's hard to get players into the whole slang of the setting, which is a huge barrier.

We have had pretty much all levels go through Sigil and the gatetowns, but only mid- to high-levels out on the Planes themselves.

The best way to evoke Planescape (IMHO) is to not stick to a standard "bad guy + dungeon crawl = fun timez for PCz" mentality. Make many bad guys, but most of all, make all NPCs especially interesting (and -- often -- have their own motives which are largely selfish). On top of that, very different settings, and making a much bigger deal of traveling to different places. In a typical campaign, going from point A to B usually is "get on horse, have random encounter, arrive at destination." In Planescape, just figuring out the means of opening a portal -- never mind finding the correct one in the first place -- is usually a big to-do, and gives the opportunity for a lot more roleplaying in the form of gathering information (rather than just relying on the skill of the same name), bribery (which is HUGE in Planescape, and often overlooking by your typical party of heroes), and problem-solving (some portals need to have other issues around them resolved before they can be used).

I'll see if I don't have some specific examples and post them here sometime.

 

[Ripzerai]

The Factions never made a big impression with me. I read most of them and had a hard time accepting anyone with any sense would follow any of the tenets.

I think those of us who like the factions aren't interested in playing people with "sense." They're people working to change the nature of reality, to redefine it with their faith and will. They live in fluid, surreal realms of myth and possibility, and what "primes" consider sensible doesn't occur to them. Living on the planes changes you, your goals and thought-processes becoming alien and eldritch.

And so, yeah, I think that's the big difference. You're looking at the factions and thinking, "Bring an end to the universe? Force everyone to believe the same thing? Uncontrolled solipsism? Why would I ever believe, much less work to advance, those crazy causes?" Whereas I look at them and think, "Wow, wouldn't it be interesting and wild to play a character who believed in, and worked to advance, one of those crazy causes!"

There's also the pragmatic angle: being that the factions control Sigil, people join them simply to advance their own personal and political power. A lot of them don't necessarily believe that hard; they're just interested in what the factions as political organizations can do for them. Freeing the factions of that corruption was part of what the Faction War adventure was about.

Of course, Planescape wasn't necessarily about the factions. They were introduced as a way to drive forward plot and character hooks and cement the "philosophy/war of clashing beliefs" themes David Cook introduced when he was reinventing the AD&D Outer Planes, but it's perfectly possible to run a Planescape campaign without using them at all.

To answer Kamikaze's question, I think the factions were a big part of what made Planescape "work" as a coherent setting, however. An individual DM and players can bring their own themes forward, however, and I've seen that done very well.

I don't know much about Oathbound, but I think what makes Kingdom Hearts work in the same way as Planescape is the sense of unreality that infuses them, and that ties into my critique/defense of the factions as well. That ties into Planescape's art, too: you don't feel like this is the "real world" and so a different level of expectations apply. You're roleplaying figures in one of Socrates' dialogues down the rabbit hole in Wonderland, so why should anything make sense? Of course there will be Vikings, bariaurs, ninjas, elves, and Believers of the Source covorting together - you're playing a dream, or a multiverse where everything is a dream, a butterfly's nightmare warped by the proximity of the Sphinx.

 

[Voadam]

What settings do you know of that almost never say "no," and still manage to make the open-ended content reflect some sort of unique, core feel?

There is also Ravenloft, in the 2e version characters can be drawn in from anywhere and many of the darklords were from all over, Dragonlance, Athas, Greyhawk, Toril, historical settings, etc.

Ravenloft has its own definite character, with the divination and travel limitations, the gothic atmosphere of most settings, the power of evil and the possibility of manifest corruption from actions taken.

I played it as D&D Cthulhu and the diverse party of a greek homebrew world with new characters from Athas, Toril, and natives of the realms did well and felt that the realm and campaign had its own definite flavor.

 

[Ripzerai]

Other good examples of what I think Kamikaze is trying to convey are the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen comic, or Lullaby. They're both pastiches drawing from many sources, but the authors have created coherent narratives to tie them together. That's the job of the DM, in many cases, but campaign setting material can do the same thing.

First of all you need some sort of justification for why disparate realities are bleeding together. That's really the easy part - there are so many science fiction and fantasy tropes meant to do that, that it's not a difficulty.

Then you need some common antagonists. The interesting thing about Planescape's factions is that none of them are entirely heroes or villains, but Planescape can be as easily centered on an obvious evil, like the forces of the Lower Planes.

That's pretty much it, really.

Other examples include Tad Williams' Otherland and Crisis on Infinite Earths.