Planescape Planescape to languish in purgatory?

[UngainlyTitan]

I think you're misunderstanding me, or I am misunderstanding you.

I don't like orcs always having to be evil and stupid, as that depends on setting. Thus, I didn't like the original Volo's Orc Race, and prefer the Eberron/Exandria one. I like that they errata'd the book to get rid of that original race. It is easier for me to just ignore the orc monster stat blocks in the MM than it is for me to homebrew an Orc race (before Eberron/Exandria Orcs came out, that is).

Now I am curious, the thing I like about Vollo/Mordenkanien etc. is that they can be unreliable, prejudiced and what ever and that gives the DM the opportunity to subvert the common beliefs.
The MM descriptions in the past were represented as accurate and things like racial alignments were the result of fixed cosmic ordinances, where as Vollo's Guide is just reportage by some bloke.

 

[TheSword]

And so it begins again...

 

[Don Durito]

It really is the case that a lot of players do seem to expect things to work in the default generic kind of way unless explicitly told otherwise.

It does get frustrating and make one feel like the grinch to keep saying "no it doesn't work this way". (And it would't occur to me to even call out these differences in advance as I've certainly got better things to do then to read through the umpteenth edition of WOTC describing what Orcs are).

 

[dave2008]

I think you're misunderstanding me, or I am misunderstanding you.

I don't like orcs always having to be evil and stupid, as that depends on setting. Thus, I didn't like the original Volo's Orc Race, and prefer the Eberron/Exandria one. I like that they errata'd the book to get rid of that original race. It is easier for me to just ignore the orc monster stat blocks in the MM than it is for me to homebrew an Orc race (before Eberron/Exandria Orcs came out, that is).

I think that is what I thought, but I just don't understand: if you accept that orcs are different than the MM why you can't except that theye different from Volo's? Why is it somehow more difficult to say they can have a different alignment and be intelligent for a PC vs a monster?

But everyone has different hang-ups. I don't have to understand to accept that it is an issue for you. I'm glad you've gotten some relief

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Personally I'm more interested in a book on the planes of the Great Wheel and why I as a DM should set adventures in them rather than one on Planescape in general and Sigil in particular.

I started playing D&D during 3.5, and when I Iooked through the planes presented in the DMG my initial thought for most was "why would my players ever go there?" When 4E came around and replaced the Great Wheel with the World Axis I found it to be a significant improvement for the following reasons:

• The planes were islands in an Astral Sea with ships that travelled between them, some being ships created by the gods themselves for various missions. A traveler might come upon an ark ship created by Bahamut, for example, captained by a powerful metallic dragon on a mission to rescue souls that are unable to enter the plane their soul was supposed to go to.
• Each plane had at least one hook. Hestavar was the metropolis of the Astral Sea presided over by the gods of Light, Civilization, and Knowledge where even devils were welcome so long as they followed the law. One of the goddesses of Hestavar, Ioun, once had her own plane of Shom which was ruined and overrun by powerful monsters; as a result followers of Ioun hire adventurers to recover lost artifacts from the vaults of knowledge hidden in Shom. Carceri was where the gods created titans as weapons of war against the godlike elementals known as the primordials, and since the end of that conflict the plane has been on lockdown to prevent the means of creating titans from being used again (as a result Carceri is also used as a prison). Tytherion is the home of both Tiamat and Zehir, whose followers war against one another for control of the plane. Pluton is the graveyard of the gods where the most devoted followers of dead gods preside over tombs dedicated to them while trying to discover how their fallen patrons might be resurrected.
• Instead of every single plane having it's own unique kind of celestial, for the most part the planes were filled with the souls of the exalted dead and overseen by angels of varying allegiances (most of which are highly professional freelancers who are dedicated to the gods but only serve a given god for a certain amount of time; an angel currently serving Pelor could have previously served Bane, for example).
• These planes were extensively supported by adventures and lore in Dungeon Magazine and related character options in Dragon Magazine.

5E brought back the Great Wheel but largely seems uninterested in exploring it. Guardinals, archons, demodands, etc are nowhere to be found, not even mentions of them. Yugoloths have returned but have been massively reduced in importance; they are now said to have been commissioned by Asmodeus and created by night hags rather than being the original fiends, and the Blood War skips all the lower planes other than the Abyss and the Nine Hells thanks to the Styx allowing easy access to Avernus.

The designers almost seem to have brought back the Great Wheel just to placate people who hated 4E and have no true interest in using it or bringing back the other celestials and fiends. To be fair, the lack of the Dragon and Dungeon magazines has probably exacerbated the problem.

If anyone knows whether there are quality DMs Guild products covering Bytopia or Gehenna I'd be interested to know.

 

[SkidAce]

If anyone knows whether there are quality DMs Guild products covering Bytopia or Gehenna I'd be interested to know.

I purchased and like all of the ones in this series.

Codex of the Infinite Planes Vol 17 Bytopia - Dungeon Masters Guild | Dungeon Masters Guild

Codex of the Infinite Planes Vol 17 Bytopia - Codex of the Infinite Planes Volume 17: Twin Paradises of Bytopia Open these pages and learn about the hardest-working p

www.dmsguild.com

Codex of the Infinite Planes Vol 21 Gehenna - Dungeon Masters Guild | Dungeon Masters Guild

Codex of the Infinite Planes Vol 21 Gehenna - Codex of the Infinite Planes Volume 21: Bleak Eternity of Gehenna Open these pages and learn about the volcanic plane of

www.dmsguild.com

The author has also done a revised compilation;

Codex of the Infinite Planes - Dungeon Masters Guild | Dungeon Masters Guild

Codex of the Infinite Planes - Codex of the Infinite Planes Multiverse of Wonder and Adventure! Fully bookmarked 369 page PDF! Color interior art! Crac

www.dmsguild.com

 

[Demetrios1453]

I purchased and like all of the ones in this series.

Codex of the Infinite Planes Vol 17 Bytopia - Dungeon Masters Guild | Dungeon Masters Guild

Codex of the Infinite Planes Vol 17 Bytopia - Codex of the Infinite Planes Volume 17: Twin Paradises of Bytopia Open these pages and learn about the hardest-working p

www.dmsguild.com

Codex of the Infinite Planes Vol 21 Gehenna - Dungeon Masters Guild | Dungeon Masters Guild

Codex of the Infinite Planes Vol 21 Gehenna - Codex of the Infinite Planes Volume 21: Bleak Eternity of Gehenna Open these pages and learn about the volcanic plane of

www.dmsguild.com

The author has also done a revised compilation;

Codex of the Infinite Planes - Dungeon Masters Guild | Dungeon Masters Guild

Codex of the Infinite Planes - Codex of the Infinite Planes Multiverse of Wonder and Adventure! Fully bookmarked 369 page PDF! Color interior art! Crac

www.dmsguild.com

Oh, I didn't know they had collected them all in a compendium! I had peeked at a couple of the individual offerings a while back, but was holding off until they completed the series, and subsequently forgot to check back on it. Looks like they released the compilation just last month. Thanks for the link!

 

[Demetrios1453]

The designers almost seem to have brought back the Great Wheel just to placate people who hated 4E and have no true interest in using it or bringing back the other celestials and fiends. To be fair, the lack of the Dragon and Dungeon magazines has probably exacerbated the problem.

This is usually the case in any edition until we get some sort of dedicated planar books or books. Heck, in 2e even demons and devils were completely banished for a good few years until they re-named them and released the Outer Planes Monstrous Compendium Appendix (and subsequently Planescape). With the slow release schedule of 5e, we really haven't had much on the planes other than Avernus and a chapter in MToF. Hopefully they'll give us more soon - they do seem to perpetually hint at the Great Modron March, after all.

 

[Quickleaf]

If anyone knows whether there are quality DMs Guild products covering Bytopia or Gehenna I'd be interested to know.

It's not a product, but I was involved in the Planar Renovation Project for both those planes.

Bytopia: Planar Renovation Project: Bytopia | planewalker

Gehenna (incomplete): Planar Renovation Project: Gehenna | planewalker
Gehenna (original archive, long): Planar Renovation Project: Gehenna | Planewalker

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

The canon books can say one thing, but after we can alter all in your homebred settings, for example gnomes and kobolds can be friends, or drows are followers deep dragons instead Lolth, or aasimar are popular because they defeated the deep state, a secret vampire lodge who ruled the human goverments.

The planes were designed to be visited and explored by high-level PCs. And we know nothing about possible plan to alter the cosmologies again. Maybe later WotC chooses the return of the Astral Sea because is the easies option to allow planar adventures for low level PCs (and those skyships are perfect to sell adventures about sailors vs pirates).

WotC allows an opened door for the return of Planescape, at least some planar handbook and some updated modules but we have to await because her project is slow, publishing candence is lower. They are working with other titles. What if they have to rebuild the complete cosmology because now they bet for the revival of the chronomancers?