Planning a new campaign - a "pseudo-sandbox" ruined city

[Mercurius]

Thanks for all of the replies - every single one has something useful and helpful (I love EN World!). To go through some specifics:

You look at an older Monte Cook product for Arcana Evolved Ruins of Intrigue. As from some setting idea, it has an interesting method to quickly build out adventures using a hook, location, and event (I think those are the 3 - its been awhile). It might give you some ideas for your approach.

Great recommendation - I just purchased it on Amazon Marketplace five minutes ago for $2 + shipping. Thanks!

A good idea (which Ruins of Intrigue implements) is to have factions within the ruins working, or even warring, against each other that the players can work with or against. Adds a great dynamic to the setting. Just have some ideas ahead of time on what faction will do depending on what the party does to help or hinder it, and that should help the setting flow without a lot of extra work after the fact.

I like that. At the least there will be other adventuring parties that the PCs will run into - some potentially much higher in level. But there will also be agents of various orders, including the Seekers Guild, which is a very organized adventurer's guild that sends people out ("Seekers") to find remnants of the prior civilization, in particular the key to the greater magic that was wielded.

Raven Crowking's Nest

M is for Megadungeon.

Contains a link to a thread here on EN World that might be of some use.

Thanks, Raven, I'll look through that.

I think I would start with Chichen Itza as my inspiration.

A wealth of information on the internet can provide maps of current ruins, drawings of the buildings as they once were, and a hint about the Mayan culture of the region.

Good idea. Actually, Chichen Itza isn't a bad comp because I'm going for an Atlantean vibe with non-European architecture with pyramids, ziggurats, etc.

Do you have a copy of the AD&D module I1: Dwellers of the Forbidden City?

I forgot about that! I used to own it but it was lost or sold years ago. I just re-ordered a copy on Amazon for $5 including shipping - a second purchase from this thread!

As far as the evil, I think I would go with an undead wizard from the prior high civilization.

Thanks for the links. As for the "Ancient Evil," funny you should mention that. I started running the higher level characters through the first part of the 4E version of Tomb of Horrors and I was re-visioning Acererak as an undead wizard from the prior high civilization who was trying to make a comeback. There's more to come there.

But one of the things that the PCs would figure out is that the high civilization was destroyed by a great war between the wizard-kings, the Sul Magari, and the old gods. Both lost - the civilization was destroyed, the Sul Magari killed (for the most part - some survived in undead form and some, unknown to anyone, reconfigured themselves as the new pantheon of gods...another secret the PCs should find out). But in the process, one of the old gods was imprisoned and not destroyed - and within this city. So I'm going to lead the PCs into freeing this god. The problem is that a thousand years of imprisonment has driven him mad and made him very dangerous. If you've read Steven Erikson's Malazan books, I'm thinking something along the lines of a Jaghut Tyrant.

For sandbox and clues, the single best advice I have seen is from the old Dungeon Craft series, back when Ray Winneger (sp?) started it. His idea here is that every ... single ... time... you introduce an NPC or named monster, powerful item, interesting locations, faction, etc. that you create at least one "secret" about this thing, and write it down. Really important things may have 2 or 3 such secrets.

Then you start planting clues about these secrets. I think he pushed heavier for relatively few clues that would be discovered almost assuredly. Coming from an information heavy style, I modfied this advice to have multiple, smaller clues for each secret. And then I complicate things by making some but not all of the secrets tie together.

What you end up with is a very intricate, complicated thing to unravel, that however does not take even half the clues to mostly unravel. And details will start to emerge almost immediately. The only real risk is that the players may get unnaturally clever and unravel it a lot faster than you planned, but I consider this a feature, not a bug. If they have to spend the last adventure or two knowing how bad things are, instead of merely suspecting, I can deal.

This is pretty much exactly what I want to do. Thanks for clarifying this for me. And as for "knowing how bad things are," read my reply above to Hand of Evil. It will get pretty bad.

One thing that has really worked well for me in 3E, Arcana Evolved, and 4E, when it comes to faster leveling at times, is to start relatively low, level at more or less the usual rate, but give two levels each time. For your setup, I might start at 2nd, advance each time a major adventure is completed, and go up to 4th, 6th, etc. Our current campaign, we did thus up to 8th, and then slowed down to regular pace. I say this, because the big problem with rapid leveling without other changes is that you don't get to spend much time enjoying the way you are now. But if all your players are reasonably into the mechanics of the game, this might not matter as much as it does for us. (We also did this because we have very infrequent but long sessions, and the last thing we want to do is level during game time.)

That's not a bad idea. I'm torn, though, as I really like the feeling of completeness that you get from playing a character through every level, even if a level is only one or two sessions. But I'll just have to wait and see how it turns out. I've also dabbled with the idea of just starting them at higher level maybe in the 3-5 range, but one of the things I like about 4E is that every level is quite playable and you don't feel like a newborn babe at 1st level like you did in AD&D (remember magic-users with 1-4 HP who, after casting magic missile, had to hide behind the fighter, fearfully clutching their quarterstaff or tossing a weak dart or two into the fray?).

Some resources I'd suggest looking for as good "looting spots":

Thanks for more links - I've got a lot to check out!

 

[Aeolius]

Good idea. Actually, Chichen Itza isn't a bad comp because I'm going for an Atlantean vibe with non-European architecture with pyramids, ziggurats, etc.

I had the privilege of visiting Chichen Itza when I was a teen. Some of the elements that remain with me to this day include the ceremonial cenote , a natural well where victims were loaded down with golden jewelry and given copious amounts of alcohol, before being shoved in the water.

I also recall how tiny the stairs were, on the pyramid. One could easily walk up, but walking down was all but impossible. A great tactical advantage to those who are either aware of the limitation or who happen to be of smaller stature.

The Mayan observatory was remarkable, especially when one could climb to the top of it. When our guide wasn't looking, my brothers and I snuck away to investigate a dark corridor. It turned out to be a hallway partially excavated and explored; lots of half-buried hallways and loads of spiders.

I also spent two weeks in the middle of a rainforest in Belize, when I was in college (mid 80s). On the teeth-rattling ride from the airport to the Blue Creek Indian Village we passed a half-dozen mounds, which turned out to be unexplored pyramids.

 

[Celebrim]

The Basic Premise
[/B]First, the setting. It was designed around the "Points of Light" concept. The basic idea is that a magical apocalypse destroyed a high civilization - and the gods along with it - about a thousand years ago. Humans were almost entirely killed off; the survivors were taken in by the Elder Races (elves, dwarves, gnomes mainly) into safe havens for centuries while "aftershocks" of the apocalypse in the form of magical storms ravaged the world, not to mention the massive tarrasque-esque monsters, called Abominations, that roamed the land.

So you are playing in the 3rd Interum Period of Sartha after the Iconoclasm and the fall of the Second Empire?

I find it interesting how often themes repeat in gamers imaginations. It's almost impossible to be original - just infinite variation on a few powerful mythic themes.

About two hundred years ago a new pantheon of gods appeared and calmed the storms and killed off or imprisoned most of the Abominations.

Good to see you didn't actually have a mind reading device and that our respective histories diverge.

The basic idea for this new campaign is that a vast complex of ruins, a massive city of the prior great civilization, was recently found in the jungles to the south. Adventurers are flocking to it; a small town was set up on its edge to provide services - inns, shops, whores, all the good stuff. (If you're familiar with Earthdawn, which was an influence on this setting as a whole, then you might be reminded of Parlainth). The prior civilization was ruled by sorcerer-kings, so there was tons of magic - items, creatures, etc - so lots of potential loot to discover! (and weird monsters to face).

Since there is obviously no sense in trying to maintain my originality, it's important I think to keep in mind what role the Sorcerer Kings had in creating the aforementioned Apocalypse. If they had any role at all, even if that role is not clearly remembered, chances are the majority of society is not very eager to have history repeat itself. There should be significant and strong factions, including some who are quite sympathetic in their motivations if not their methods, who are not happy at all to have the equivalent of unstable nuclear weapons dug up and distributed. There might be widespread taboos against certain sorts of magical investigation or even magic at all.

As for your setting, there is an existing thread around here somewhere concerning the mechanics of setting a campaign centered on investigation of a ruined city. Some of the ideas in there might be of value to you.

Ahh... here it is.

Also try here.

 

[Tamlyn]

But one of the things that the PCs would figure out is that the high civilization was destroyed by a great war between the wizard-kings, the Sul Magari, and the old gods. Both lost - the civilization was destroyed, the Sul Magari killed (for the most part - some survived in undead form and some, unknown to anyone, reconfigured themselves as the new pantheon of gods...another secret the PCs should find out). But in the process, one of the old gods was imprisoned and not destroyed - and within this city. So I'm going to lead the PCs into freeing this god. The problem is that a thousand years of imprisonment has driven him mad and made him very dangerous. If you've read Steven Erikson's Malazan books, I'm thinking something along the lines of a Jaghut Tyrant.

Sounds like you've got some built-in depth and intrigue here. If some of the wizard-kings could survive (kinda) why couldn't some of the old gods' servants and priests survive too? And why couldn't they have new (living) followers? For that matter, why couldn't the undead wizards have new (living) apprentices, etc... Sounds like there are possibilities for all kinds of options to get some of the excitement into civilized areas as well.

I'm interested to hear more of what you come up with.

 

[Pbartender]

Anything else? Any thoughts or advice or ideas in general? How would you prepare and run this?

Probably using something similar to this...

Don't miss the other pages.

 

[Celebrim]

But one of the things that the PCs would figure out is that the high civilization was destroyed by a great war between the wizard-kings, the Sul Magari, and the old gods. Both lost - the civilization was destroyed, the Sul Magari killed (for the most part - some survived in undead form and some, unknown to anyone, reconfigured themselves as the new pantheon of gods...another secret the PCs should find out). But in the process, one of the old gods was imprisoned and not destroyed - and within this city. So I'm going to lead the PCs into freeing this god. The problem is that a thousand years of imprisonment has driven him mad and made him very dangerous. If you've read Steven Erikson's Malazan books, I'm thinking something along the lines of a Jaghut Tyrant.

So, all of that is very much expected as being part of the mainstream of this particular mythic trope.

So it's probably a good time to talk about flowcharting out your adventure path in a broad way. You're making several assumptions about PC behavior and motivation that may not hold true in the campaign. For one thing, my initial thinking as a player hearing this is, "This is bad. No possible good can come from investigating the ruins of a city related to a magical apocalypse that led to the extinction of gods. If we go there at all, it needs to be to kill everyone involved in exploring these accursed ruins before they do something stupid like wake up a sleeping sorcerer king, old god, or accidently cast Power Word: Armageddon."

So your flowchart should contain the decision point: "What if my players aren't interested in exploring?"

And the obvious sort of answer is to prep rivals or villains who will force the players hands, so you are prepared to move the campaign moves forward with a plot line, "You must stop X from awakening the Jaghut Tyrant." In this way, Faction B - the one that doesn't want the ruins explored - can be either a foil or the ally/plot mover, depending on what side of the moral issue the party comes down on. It's probably a good ideal then to have at least one group on either side of the issue be potentially attractive to the players. You can also plan for decision points where the PC's decide they are on the wrong side halfway into the campaign, and change sides.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Not knocking Chichen Itza, but were this my baby, I'd want to incorporate elements of Angkor Wat.

The images of what the jungle has done in reclaiming the ruins are stunning.
http://www.kellscreations.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Angkor-Wat-Ruins.jpg

Or, given your Atlantean vibe, perhaps the mysterious Nan Madol- a Venice-like network of man-made megalithic basalt islands.

You could even mix the two: Nan Madol could be your blueprint for the coastal area & artificial archipelago, the discovery of it's artificiality could lead inland to the jungle-draped ruins of the main city.

 

[Aeolius]

The images of what the jungle has done in reclaiming the ruins are stunning.

I thought that looked familiar. There was a photo gallery of a temple in Cambodia posted at natgeo, some time ago. This image has been in my brain ever since:

Granted, Belize has strangler figs as well.

 

[Hand of Evil]

site for art...CGTalk

 

[Aeolius]

site for art...CGTalk

I am reminded of this model from DAZ3D :

Palenque Ruins