Plate Armor - It isn't really that heavy!

[Kriegspiel]

Actually, since maille means net, it fits perfectly. I've heard the chainmail is redundant argument before, but I personally feel that "chain net" perfectly describes the armor.

Well it's a little more than "an argument" it's pretty well documented that "chain" was added in the 18th century.

Chain: a flexible line of rings or loops of metal or other material, locked inside each other

Mesh: a loose woven material of rope, wire, etc

Net: a material made of rope, wire, string etc., knotted or twisted together, used for a specific purpose

As their basest level:

chain = things joined or fastened together
mesh = objects interlocked with one another
net = something knotted, twisted or woven together

Not a whole lot of difference there.

As far back as the middle french "Maille" the term was specifically used to refer to a "coat of mail (or maille)". Do you say "I'm wearing my denim blue jeans?" or "my cotton blue jeans"? Probably not, "jeans" describes the article of clothing without any need for further clarification. The same is true of Maille, Maile or Mail. By their very definition they define the object, without need for embellishment.

Oops, I'll be back I have to re-tie the string laces on my shoes.

 

[Imperialus]

Re: Myths about european swords...

Common myth. Bad quality european swords were not common. Breaking swords were seldom reported in sources other than myths and legends or fairy tales. The sword itself was not very common either. Why bother to train with a sword if you can easily hit the enemy with a hammer?

Ok... First allow me to clarify my position. European swords did break quite easally if used for a purpose for which they were not intended. First of all european weapons in the 15th century were designed exclusively as that. Weapons. You were not expected to parry/ripost much at all. You either got out of the way of incomeing blows, or your armour took it. Two sharp swords pounding on each others edges would chip and loose their edge quite quickly. The same thing happend if you were bashing a swords edge against a solid plate. Cutting motions were generally used to quickly cut through unarmoured infantry and the like.

Therefore what was done is the sword was narrowed to a point over the entire length of the blade, as can be seen in the second picture down here http://www.varmouries.com/weapons/deltin.html . This allowed the tip of the blade to be used to try and find openings in the armour and you would try and stab through those gaps to kill a person.

Also remember that most swords were simply made of a very high carbon steel which like I said before allowed them to hold an edge like a razor but made them quite brittle. They are tough to come across these days but try this experiment. Take a stainless steel blade and a carbon steel blade strike them both with a hammer. I can promice you that the carbon steel will probably shatter. It isn't because the carbon steel is of poor quality, it's because you are abuseing it. It's like how moderen marines would be stupid to bury their M16's in the sand, or jump up and down on them.

As for the comment about swords not being common I'l like to argue that too. Why does nearly every surviveing fighting manual of the time focus on sword work? Be kinda dumb to learn how to use a weapon you wern't going to actually use.

 

[Aaron L]

Oh no, I/m not arguing that the term chainmail wasn't invented in the 1800's, I'm arguing that I like the term chainmail better than just maille, because it's more poetic

 

[adndgamer]

Is it just me, or do these things always turn into pissing contests with different people claiming they're right about different things (swords in particular -- I've seen arguments spring up about them more times than I can count). Ah well... It IS entertaining.

 

[Imperialus]

Re: Re: Re: Plate Armor - It isn't really that heavy!

Finally on the comment about the medieval Knight being smaller and weaker than his serf counterparts:
The landed gentry may not have dined on the perfect food combinations, but it was certainly orders of magnitude healthier than the single source subsistence diets the average serf was forced to make do with.

Sure they ate better but archiological evidance suggests that in terms of sheer size and bulk most pesant soldiers and liveries were typically bigger than their nobel counterparts. The pesants still wern't big by todays standards but, well lets put it this way I would be concidered quite big in the 15th century and I stand 6'0" and weigh 140 lbs. I'm not saying that the knights were out of shape or anything but they wern't behemoths either. In fact most knights were probably stronger than most people today but that doesn't mean they were big. In fact small frames were seen as an advantage since you could carry the armour better.

 

[Imperialus]

Is it just me, or do these things always turn into pissing contests with different people claiming they're right about different things (swords in particular -- I've seen arguments spring up about them more times than I can count). Ah well... It IS entertaining.

meh, wouldnt' call it a pissing contest, just a debate. This is the first thread that has come along in quite some time that has managed to hold my interest.

 

[SableWyvern]

Re: Re: Re: Plate Armor - It isn't really that heavy!

Regarding the ability to sleep in Armor:
A Knight in full harness who's been fighting for the better part of a day and expects more of the same on the 'morrow, would have absolutely no trouble sleeping in his Armor. It's no different than the modern combatant sleeping in the back of a Helicopter dealing with the roar of the engine & blades, the smell of vomit, the constant buffeting & rollercoaster ride, and the stress of knowing that a battle draws inexorably closer; at the same time burdened with a Helmet, Flak Jacket, a couple of hundred rounds of ammo, a 75-100lb Ruck and a personal weapon (that's not counting extra ammo for the SAW Gunner, mortar baseplates, extra barrels for the SAW or MMG etc). Given the right circumstances the human body can become accustomed to just about anything.

Yeah, but a major difference between a modern soldier and a medieval knight can be found in required response times. Why would a knight who's just spent time in combat and who expects more tomorrow (a rare circumstance anyway) want anything less than the most comfortable sleep possible?

He's not expecting his position to be ambushed in the night, he won't be part of a rapid deployment force waiting to be sent off to a sudden hotspot; in fact depending on the period in history, he quite possibly knows the exact time that the battle is due to commence tomorrow.

A modern infantryman should be capable of sleeping in terrible conditions, but he should also be smart enough to be as comfortable as the situation allows. If you're in a secure location and not due to go out on patrol, or tasked for other jobs, you take the rare opportunity to get your boots off.

 

[WaterRabbit]

I think you might be off by a factor of 6 or more

fun fact!

Based on descriptions of an average knight's daily diet, it is estimated that a knight would eat somewhere between 20,000 to 30,000 calories A DAY.

The more you know!

Fact: Carbohydrate and Protein are about 4 Kcal / gram and Fat is about 9 Kcal / gram.

If a person ate 20,000 cal of pure lard that would be 2,222.2 grams of lard or 4.9 lbs. So, if we make the assumption that 1/3 fat, 1/3 protein, and 1/3 carb, then we get (for 20,000 cal):

10,588 cal of fat = 1,176 grams = 2.6 lbs of fat
4,706 cal of protein = 2.6 lbs of protein
4,706 cal of carb = 2.6 lbs of carb

For a total of 7.8 lbs of material / day.

Manual laborers like constructions workers need 40-45 cal per kg of body weight for input to equal output. For a 185 lbs. man (84 kg) that would be 3360 to 3780 cal per day.

 

[Imperialus]

there was one instance where I lost 2 lbs over one day. You eat like a horse if you are running around in armour all day. I put away a 18 ounce steak one night when we were out all day in really nasty heat. I wasn't even doing any really active stuff. Mostly just walking around, a few demonstrations but that's about it.

 

[WaterRabbit]

there was one instance where I lost 2 lbs over one day. You eat like a horse if you are running around in armour all day. I put away a 18 ounce steak one night when we were out all day in really nasty heat. I wasn't even doing any really active stuff. Mostly just walking around, a few demonstrations but that's about it.

So perhaps the balance for heavy armor should be an increase in food costs. Ok, trail rations are compact, dry, high-energy foods that weigh 1 lb. Let's say we have 2000 cal in that 1 lb. (hard to do actually, but let's assume). So, to consume 20,000-30,000 cal that's 10-15 lbs of trail rations at 5 sp ea. for 5-8 gold per day.

Also, of that 2 lbs. you lost I would bet 90% of it can from a water deficit. At the level of activity you are describing you should be drinking over a gallon of water (which is 8 lbs.).

So, don't forget to add 18-23 lbs of encumbrance to your character for wearing heavy armor.