Playable Expert (and general NPC class rant)

[Ilja]

I've never liked the idea of NPC classes. I think the power of a person should be primarily based on their experience and their attributes. I've never once understood the idea of having NPC classes. While I understand that there may be game balance issues, I don't have a problem with the town guard being 1st level fighters instead of 1st level warriors. The difference is basically a single hit point and a single feat, and you shouldn't go mess with them anyway. Not to talk about the commoner...
The typical commoner is the hard-working peasant. Still, the peasant who has been defending his home against goblins and wolves, worked hard on the fields with scythe in hand, and survived disease and starvation - still gets equal HD, attack bonus, and fortitude saves as the mage who has lived his life in a library. If I'd do a peasant class, I'd give it good fort, d8 hit points, and medium BAB, and 4 skill points/level.

However, I'm not only creating this to whine. I actually created a playable, extremely flexible version of the Expert class. I'm gonna use this for most of my non-combat non-spell npcs, from the peasant to the merchant to the blacksmith to the librarian. I'll also use it heavily in multiclassed NPC's - I've never understood why a general should be something like Ftr 8 - that doesn't give him enough skill points to learn anything about important matters for generals - knowledge of warfare, diplomacy, riding and so on. Throw in a level or two of Expert and it's fixed!

So, here's the class, hope you like it:

Hit Dice: d8.
Class Skills: Craft (Int) and Proffession (Vis). In addition, the expert may choose up to 10 + Intelligence Modifier additional skills, that are his class skills. He may choose Knowledge (All, taken individually) for a "price" of three class skills.
Skill points: 8 + Int
Starting Equipment: 6t4x10 gp.
Vapen- och pansarträning: An expert is proficient with all simple weapons and two light or one-handed martial weapons They are also proficient with light and medium armor but not with shields.

Level	BaB     Good      Bad
                     Save     Saves
1	0	+2	+0	Skill Focus, Favored by All
2	+1	+3	+0	
3	+2	+3	+1	
4	+3	+4	+1	Bonus Feat
5	+3	+4	+1	Expert Professional
6	+4	+5	+2	Skill Mastery
7	+5	+5	+2	Skill Focus
8	+6	+6	+2	
9	+6	+6	+3	Reputation
10	+7	+7	+3	Bonus Feat
11	+8	+7	+3	Extended Class Skills
12	+9	+8	+4	
13	+9	+8	+4	Skill Focus
14	+10	+9	+4	
15	+11	+9	+5	
16	+12      +10	+5	Bonus Feat
17	+12	+10	+5	Skill Mastery
18	+13	+11	+6	
19	+14	+11	+6	Skill Focus
20	+15	+12	+6

Favored by All: Expert can be choosen as a favored class by any character, replacing another favored class.
Saving Throws: The expert may choose either Reflex, Fortitude, or Will as their primary save. This follows the Good Save column, while the others follow the Bad Save column.
Skill focus: On the first level and every six levels thereafter, the expert gains a Skill Focus of his choice as a bonus feat.
Bonus Feat: On fourth level and every six levels thereafter, the expert gains a bonus feat.
Expert Professional: At level 5, the Expert may choose a single Craft, Profession, Perform, or Knowledge skill. Once per day, he may add his class level to a check against this skill.
Skill Mastery: Works like the Rogue's ability.
Reputation: The expert may add half his level to checks towards Diplomacy and Bluff when dealing with others of his profession (anyone who has at least 4 ranks, or 1 rank and has it as a class skill, in a skill that the Expert has at least 4 ranks in).
Extended Class Skills: The expert gets to choose an additional number of class skills equal to his intelligence score.

=========

What do you think? Is it playable (mostly as a multi-class option)? Is it too good with all these skills? Too bad, due to being nearly useless in combat? I understand that it will sneak better than a rogue (if it wants too) but it does lack the combat abilities of a rogue (and trapfinding, though I have that as a feat as a house rule) which I think makes up for the higher skill possibilities.

 

[Sylrae]

Hmm. I would make favored by all not replace the favored class, but sort of count as an Additional favored class.

Otherwise I like it.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I agree NPC classes are sort of a dumb tack-on to 3e; unimportant people should be represented by low levels and low ability scores, not inferior classes.

This class I wouldn't play as a PC unless it had a bit more and earlier bonus feats (which would create an optimal dip class like the fighter), but it's decent.

I think it would just be simpler to give it all skills as class skills (and not really unbalancing, given the number and choice given already).

 

[EricNoah]

I'm personally a fan of NPC classes - I find them a useful part of my DM's toolkit. I actually have developed brute (barbarian lite), bandit (rogue-lite), and cultist (sorcerer-lite) NPC classes that are flexible and easy to apply. But on to your class...

When I imagine an Expert of this sort, one thing I see him doing is fumbling around with magic - say, desperately trying to activate a spell in a found wizard's spellbook. I would like to see a way for the Expert to have a way to attempt to cast spells but in more of a "skill-based" manner, yet not have it be quite as challenging as Use Magic Device skill with regard to spell scrolls. I guess that's my only thought...

 

[Aus_Snow]

I like 'NPC classes', personally, but I tend to think of them (and things like them) as 'non-adventurer options' instead. So really, it's nothing to do with who's playing what, but rather what characters are doing (more), and not doing (as much).

Adventuring, and all that comes with that, is just something most folk don't do. And if they do, well then, they can have some levels in 'PC classes', and good luck to them.

Anyway, what I do is place level caps on all 'NPC classes'. Plus, my array of them is slightly different. But as always, whatever works for one's own campaigns is what's right, of course.

 

[Wolf72]

I don't mind NPC classes at all either ...

the expert is one of my favorites because it's so versatile in what you want to do ... just come up with a theme and 10 skills to support it.

Warrior isn't bad, makes a perfect easy fighter like minion.

If I want a group to have someone who can pick locks, they can hire a NPC expert ... rather than a full blown rogue (which is a bigger headache for me).

The adept is kind of awkward for me though, I wish they'd included different types of spell lists for different themes. I could make my own, but I know I'd tend to throw in some pretty strong spells.

Here are changes I've considered for experts and nobles

Aristocrat/Noble
• Bonus: Leadership feat at lvl 6, you can have this feat more than once
• At lvl 7 and every 3 lvls after (10, 13, 16, 19): +1 to leadership score (total of +5)
• Max starting gold +100 (6d8x10+100=580). +100gp/lvl gained (an ARIS 2 who makes lvl3 gains 300gp).

Expert
• Bonus Feat: Skill Focus at lvls 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20.


on a related topic: I like the Noble and Master classes from Dragonlance (which basically makes pc versions fo the aristocrat and expert)

 

[Ilja]

First of all, thanks a lot for all input!

The thing with seeing them as non-adventuring classes seems hard for me. If someone wanted to play a newly graduated wizard, I wouldn't say that they should play adept instead because she hasn't adventured. Drizzt Do'Urden didn't adventure until after his graduation (as far as I remember) and then he was already a fighter. I'd rather say that adventuring gives XP, and therefore, adventurers are usually level 2 or higher. But I guess it's a matter of taste.

Hmm. I would make favored by all not replace the favored class, but sort of count as an Additional favored class.

That sounds good. Maybe I'll do a remake of all npc classes to more reflect non-adventuring classes specifically; not making them definately WORSE than the PC classes, but making them more focused on stuff that actually suits them. Give the warrior 4 skill points per level and a bunch of more class skills, since he could be a guard which would be trained in gather information, diplomacy and such, while making a peasant that's great at... growing stuff and keeping animals. I'd make all npc classes favored to all races (mostly) since they all are common parts of society. And get rid of the adept and commoner. I really hate those. An adept could be a first-level wizard using the Witch spell list, and a commoner could be an expert in his field, even if it's shoe-makery.

When I imagine an Expert of this sort, one thing I see him doing is fumbling around with magic - say, desperately trying to activate a spell in a found wizard's spellbook.

If the expert had spellcasting ability, all experts would cast spells, kinda. Nearly all rogues have UMD, and few rangers go with wis 10. The expert is kind of the back-bone of society - most professionals will be experts rather than commoners.

This class I wouldn't play as a PC unless it had a bit more and earlier bonus feats (which would create an optimal dip class like the fighter), but it's decent.

Yeah, maybe. I'm thinking of maybe slaughtering a sacred cow by making the expert have a higher actual maximum ranks in skills. It would give it a unique touch to be able to do something not everyone is. Sure, it might allow it into certain PrCs sooner, but I don't really have a problem with that, generally, especially as our group don't use very much of the non-core stuff. Maybe say that with skill points gained from Expert, you can invest as much as your level +2 in a skill (I'm playing with the pathfinder rules).

I think it would just be simpler to give it all skills as class skills (and not really unbalancing, given the number and choice given already).

Seems fair, and far simpler.

the expert is one of my favorites because it's so versatile in what you want to do ... just come up with a theme and 10 skills to support it.

YES! It's really nice to have a useful expert class to dip into, especially for RP reasons. The thing is that I don't want to punish people for RP'ing.

For example, the idea of a dwarven warrior that is also a smith isn't rare. I've seen several. Right now, a dwarven fighter with above-average intelligence gets 3 skill points per level - and skills associated with smithing in the PHB would be blacksmithing, armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, and metallurgy. If he's gonna have a business anytime, he'd also probably need at least Appraise and Diplomacy. Taking a level of Expert solves any skill problems, but he shouldn't be TOO punished in his fighting ability for gaining what, the ability to make decent non-magical stuff?
Bruenor Battlehammer must've had an int of 25 or something to account for all skill points he's used.

Here are changes I've considered for experts and nobles

Aristocrat/Noble
• Bonus: Leadership feat at lvl 6, you can have this feat more than once
• At lvl 7 and every 3 lvls after (10, 13, 16, 19): +1 to leadership score (total of +5)
• Max starting gold +100 (6d8x10+100=580). +100gp/lvl gained (an ARIS 2 who makes lvl3 gains 300gp).

Expert
• Bonus Feat: Skill Focus at lvls 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20.

on a related topic: I like the Noble and Master classes from Dragonlance (which basically makes pc versions fo the aristocrat and expert)

Looks really neat, especially the aristocrat. I'd give him a few defensive feats as well (especially the saves feats) due to training in avoiding murders, deceptions and the like.
I'll check out the dragonlance classes, are they OGC?

 

[jasin]

What is the expert's schtick, described in common language without reference to D&D rules?

It's not "skills", since skills in D&D are a rather arbitrary subset of what you'd call skills in a normal conversation. For example, swordfighting isn't a skill, jumping is a skill, running isn't a skill, faking people out in a fight is a skill. What is the thematic common ground that makes an expert good at jumping and faking people out, but not at running or swordsmanship in general?

I think character types modeled by a PC expert would be better modeled by several more specific classes. If you want a PC general who isn't as good as a fighter in sword duel but is a better strategist, tactician and leader, make a general class, with knowledge (history), perform (oratory), intimidate... but not tumble, knowledge (nature) or escape artist. If you want a PC farmer, make a heroic farmer class, with knowledge (nature), survival, handle animal, but not knowledge (nobility & royalty), forgery or decipher script.

Furthermore, to be PC-worthy, a class needs some interesting, unique special abilities, not just better results on skill checks. A general might have an aura of courage, a bonus to overland speed of his troops, a bonus to spot and listen checks made by sentries posted according to his commands. A farmer would be more difficult, but you could do something along action points or Cityscape's luck mechanics, since this kind of character is often represented as lucky or persevering despite not being particularly formally competent.

The point is, if you want a playable alchemist, general, farmer and scholar, it really doesn't make sense to represent them with a single class just because their schtick is non-combat, non-magic, just like you don't represent a duelist, a ninja and a berserker with a single class, even though they're all non-magic combat chatacters.

 

[Wolf72]

dipping into the expert class? ... hrm, I agree I wouldn't want to penalize my players either for that one.

options ... at first level all pc's get to pick a free level of an npc class (aristocrat, expert, warrior). You get skill points (6, 4 or 2 +/- int mod x1, the x4 is for your chosen career), hit points, saves, etc. this doesn't count as a full character level it's free.

sure all your first level characters a big boost, but not nearly overpowering.

but I'll second again the master class from Dragonlance (iirc it's in the War of the Lance hardcover).

great upgrade to the expert imo.