D&D 5E Player agency and Paladin oath.

[Mort]

Did anyone suggest something that extreme?

Yes. Right in the first posted scenario, in fact.

Playing a CN character that's actually CE, lies, tortures etc. May well be that extreme and will cause conflict in a group that ostensibly working for a good church with a representative of that church in the group

Or later in the thread when "anything goes..." was suggested.

 

[Mort]

What needs to be changed?

Depends on the group. If you're going for a PvP characters in conflict game, probably best to lessen people's attachments to their characters, so less investment in backstory etc.

This sounds like a personal issue. I play in 2 games where clashing PCs are possible. It's rare and there is no sting of horrible(or any other kind) of betrayal. I do agree that everyone needs to be made aware that PvP is a possibility.

Wanting to ensure the entire group has fun is not a personal issue.for that to happen players (and DM) must be on the same page as to what's fun for the group.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes. Right in the first posted scenario, in fact.

Playing a CN character that's actually CE, lies, tortures etc. May well be that extreme and will cause conflict in a group that ostensibly working for a good church with a representative of that church in the group

Or later in the thread when "anything goes..." was suggested.

The OP doesn't match up to the example you posted above regarding elves. The party didn't get into a fight. They simply disagreed strongly about something and the CN PCs backed down. That's just roleplaying and is perfectly fine. PCs don't have to agree.

 

[Maxperson]

Depends on the group. If you're going for a PvP characters in conflict game, probably best to lessen people's attachments to their characters, so less investment in backstory etc.

Soooo, I disagree. Having played in games where PvP can and does happen(though rarely), we invest and write backgrounds for every character. It's simply not a problem for us.

Wanting to ensure the entire group has fun is not a personal issue.for that to happen players (and DM) must be on the same page as to what's fun for the group.

Why do you assume that a game where PvP is possible isn't fun for a lot of people?

 

[Mort]

The OP doesn't match up to the example you posted above regarding elves. The party didn't get into a fight. They simply disagreed strongly about something and the CN PCs backed down. That's just roleplaying and is perfectly fine. PCs don't have to agree.

And then the DM complained that the Paladin isn't a fit because he's reigning in the CNs. Why complain if everyone is having fun.

The elves post was an example provided to demonstrate a point. I think it demonstrates that point well and fits with the OP and later posts but to each their own.

 

[Mort]

Soooo, I disagree. Having played in games where PvP can and does happen(though rarely), we invest and write backgrounds for every character. It's simply not a problem for us.

That's great. And does absolutely nothing to change the fact that I've seen it cause problems on many occasions.

Why do you assume that a game where PvP is possible isn't fun for a lot of people?

That's not exactly what I said. I said that a game where PvP is possible without proper player buy in and full knowledge of what may occur, is not fun for a lot of people. Unfortunately, this is often left out when a game is starting and players (and the DM) have differing expectations, boundaries. That's where the problems lie.

 

[Helldritch]

1) PvP can be fun
2) PvP can be detrimental to fun
So, PvP can be both fun and detrimental to fun. Just make sure that everyone at the table is aware that PvP can happen at the table and all should be fine. The rare times it happened at my table and it was not expected led to a lot of arguing and shouting. When it was expected, we were all laughing, even the loser. A game is game. As long as everybody is on the same page; it should be ok.

 

[Maxperson]

1) PvP can be fun
2) PvP can be detrimental to fun
So, PvP can be both fun and detrimental to fun. Just make sure that everyone at the table is aware that PvP can happen at the table and all should be fine. The rare times it happened at my table and it was not expected led to a lot of arguing and shouting. When it was expected, we were all laughing, even the loser. A game is game. As long as everybody is on the same page; it should be ok.

This. It's all that needs to be said on the subject. Not posts about how bad it is. Just a simple warning ahead of time that it's possible.

 

[wizard71]

Not quite. I still want alignment; but I don't want any restrictions on what alignment(s) get played.

How can extreme agency (over one's own character) ever be a problem?

If' I've got agency to cause a problem you've got agency to solve it - if you can. The same is true in reverse.

There are no inherent restrictions on what alignments get played. Its more of a social agreement between players and DM. That agreement varies widely at each table. The issue with too much agency destroys game fun. I want to worry about game plot and monsters and loot. I don't want to have to babysit your poor actions. I don't want to watch the DM constantly perform mental gymnastics justifying why PC monsters would not be hunted down the party with the same zeal adventurers show when slaying other evil monsters such as dragons, vampires and demons

 

[Oofta]

There are no inherent restrictions on what alignments get played. Its more of a social agreement between players and DM. That agreement varies widely at each table. The issue with too much agency destroys game fun. I want to worry about game plot and monsters and loot. I don't want to have to babysit your poor actions. I don't want to watch the DM constantly perform mental gymnastics justifying why PC monsters would not be hunted down the party with the same zeal adventurers show when slaying other evil monsters such as dragons, vampires and demons

Something I used to do was warn people that other high level NPCs exist and can be hired to hunt down the PCs if they go rogue and/or break the law. I had one player who continuously pushed the boundaries and eventually the long arm of the law caught up with him. Would have ended with the PC being executed but a fellow player used a wish as a literal get out of jail free card.

I haven't had the issue in a long time, but adventurers don't exist in a vacuum. Authorities exist and even if the PCs are extremely exceptional in your world, there's always being considered an outcast and a pariah.