Player Character as an enemy

[Hymness]

Hi guys! I'm new here, I used to read this forum quite often but now, I have a question and couldn't find the answer up to now.

I was thinking about creating some kind of nemesis for the players party. The party is lvl 4, so I built a lvl 4 Paladin multiclassed into a warlock. The result is quite surprising. I built the enemy as if I would have created a player character. The question is:

Is this monster considered a solo monster? An elite? I would be surprise if it was considered as a single lvl 4 monster unnamed. As I said, he appears to be quite strong and, I think, could be a great challenge for the 3-players party.

I didn't find the answer in the DMG.

Also, last game, I made my party fight against a "mirror golem". One of the player, by touching some kind of magic mirror, got "eaten" by the mirror (sorry here, I'm sure you'll understand even if it's not the right word, it's just that I use to speak french ). The battle was on 2 sides. The character that got eaten was fighting on his side of the mirror against the golem, and the 2 others players were fighting it on their side. I used the rule to create a solo monster (starting with the PC sheet of the player that got eaten, adding stats as the DMG said for solo monsters), and got a result quite too strong for the players. I had to improvise to make them fight the golem without them dying in the first round =P

In what category of monster a Player Character is?

Hope my english isn't too bad

Hymn'

 

[Ibixat]

Page 187 of the DMG has information of creating a NPC similar to a players that keeps them as a viable opponent. A regularly created PC opponent would be too strong and to keep them competitive if the PC's ever did win would have too much loot.

 

[Lacyon]

If you create an NPC according to the NPC creation rules in the DMG, you get a normal monster of its level.

Since you seem to have done a full write-up of this guy using the PHB instead, he'll have more powers and probably be closer to an Elite in terms of damage output.

His Lay on Hands (with a full PC compliment of Healing Surges to back it up) should take his HP up to around Elite-level also (4 surges spread out over the combat would about double his HP - again on par with an Elite).

You might consider giving the NPC the action point, +2 saves, and defense bonuses associated with being Elite as well, depending on his powers.

 

[WalterKovacs]

The best way to do a doppelganger of the player [seems to be sort of what you were saying ... an evil twin type?] would be to make an NPC version of the character, picking 1 at will, 1 encounter, 1 daily and 1 utility, include the basic attacks, etc. There is also a bit about adding class templates in the DMG. They basically make the monster an elite this way, although it does have less healing surges, and fewer powers than the PC.

 

[Engilbrand]

I'll be statting out some of the major villains that my players will face in the same way that you mentioned. I already sent them against a Genasi Swordmage with the Battle Champion template. A PC-statted monster is probably a little stronger than an elite monster, so keep that in mind.

 

[Stalker0]

After facing a paladin "PC" as an enemy, I can tell you the effects are heinous. The biggest thing to note is that with a PC as an enemy, they have the nova factor. They are going to use all of their dailies in a fight, and that can be incredible powerful.

I would stick with the class templates in the dmg, I think those work pretty well.

 

[Hymness]

Technically, a lvl 4 PC fighter has as many chances to beat a lvl 4 PC fighter than this last one to beat the first, no?

There might be something I don't understand. I remeber that it is stated that a solo monster equal five monster of its lvl. I don't think a PC monster is as strong as 5 PC, since it's as strong as one since it IS one...

Ideas? Opinions?

Hymn'

 

[Lacyon]

Technically, a lvl 4 PC fighter has as many chances to beat a lvl 4 PC fighter than this last one to beat the first, no?

That depends on whether either of the fighters has already spent some daily abilities, has action points remaining, has surges remaining, etc.

There might be something I don't understand. I remeber that it is stated that a solo monster equal five monster of its lvl. I don't think a PC monster is as strong as 5 PC, since it's as strong as one since it IS one...

A level 4 monster is somewhat weaker than a level 4 PC. If the monsters had a 50% chance of winning every fight, virtually no characters would survive to 2nd level.

That said, a single PC-statted character is probably not worth five monsters of its level. But being worth two is reasonable.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

1. A fight between two PCs is rougly equal, 50/50 odds of going either way depending upon class/build and if played intelligently. So 2 rogues with the exact same build and played smartly would be a 'coin flip' or even battle.

2. A battle of 5 PCs versus 5 standard monsters is not a 'coin flip battle'. The PCs using even mediocre tactits should win most of the time.
The same should also be true of 1 PC versus 1 standard monster in most circumstances.

If 1 is true and 2 is true, then a NPC built with PC rules would be greater than a standard monster.
Determining how much greater is difficult to tell.

The question becomes at what point does an encounter become a coin flip or evenly matched battle.
-or-
At what point is an encounter of PC Level+X an evenly matched fight.
X being how many levels lower or higher the encounter is than the PC's level.

 

[Bumamgar]

Rules for players are just that, rules for PLAYERS, and should never be used to create NPCs. There are rules in the DMG (as others have mentioned) to create NPCs that have the feel of a player class, and these should be used to create arch-nemesis, etc.