Player skill vs character skill?

[aramis erak]

Tangent from another thread.

A reoccurring theme of trap discussions (and many others, if we're being honest), is where to draw the line between player skill vs character skill.

So that's what this thread is about. Where are your lines on player skill vs character skill?

Everyone's different, of course. And there are multiple different places the question can come up.

If it's not clearly in the character's abilities, it needs a roll.
Player skill in narration can get moderate bonuses to the roll.

If it's not totally absurd or a clear miscommunication, I generally will set a reachable goal and send to a roll.

I absolutely do NOT let player skill trump character definition; no matter how eloquent the player. If you dumpstat Charisma, everyone's either creeped out by you or thinks you a boor, if not a total ass, by how low.

 

[aramis erak]

I have seen the same with new players and story. Fun to watch. But still, if that player took a Hulk Smash character, no amount of fiction engagement should allow Hulk to delicately sneak across a fragile bridge. That is where the GM needs to explain the choices have consequences concept. Perhaps with a "As soon as Hulk gets on the bridge, it collapses...."

Agree that later versions of D&D linage games are less stat strict. Earlier versions had a much wider spread of stat based penalties and bonuses.

No, the earliest edition was a max +1/-1 from atts... until expansions. Holmes kept that.
BX has a +3/-3 range
AD&D1 ranged from -3 to +4 or more, by attribute. AD&D2 had a similar range. both had extensive secondary abilities off the attribute, too.
3E on has a -5 to +5 range for starting PC att mods.
4E and 5E have the same mods table as 3e; 5e caps atts for PCs at 20 (exception Barbarians). for the +5 att mod cap.

D&D has, except for the AD&D1 predating BX, had a consistent increase in attribute importance over time. Even the 3E/4E and 4E changes increased it by decreasing skill mods...
BX/BECMI/BBB+Cyclo has a wider table, but PC's can't get above the +3 without magic.

 

[aramis erak]

I think this illustrates yet another distinction witin the term "player skill" that clouds the debate because different people mean different things.

In the above you seem to be defining player skill in terms of presentation. And I 100% agree with you that it should have no bearing on the outcome. It's the method/plan/approach itself that matters, not how well it is roleplayed. This mostly comes up in discussions about Charisma.

Because Charisma is so often abused by players dumpstatting (given the various methods other than "in order" rolling) that it's the most common case across game systems.

I've also had players who dumpstatted Int... and then try to use player knowledge to solve traps and such. I cut them off with the att check, just like I do the Cha dumpstats.
And I don't care how nimble the player is, if the dex is 7 on a 3-18, no one will be impressed by their dancing itself, tho' proficiency/skill might impress by them being barely competent at 30 different complex dances... which is impressive, but for different reasons...

Then there's "player skill" in terms of decisions: players choosing courses of action, or suggesting ideas to the group, that a low Intelligence character "wouldn't think of". In general I think that enforcing certain kinds of roleplaying on other players is dumb, but this one is just about the stupidest one there is. Not only would I not come back to a table that imposed this, but I would probably just get up and leave.

Knowing that, if you showed up at my table, ID'd yourself by handle, I'd say, "find another table," because I use atts & skills to gatekeep character action choices.

I use the game to provide the texture to player choice. If you chose a low IQ and low knowledge character, and are providing all the tactical plans, you're not playing the character as written.

Then again, I've had, off and on, mentally disabled players as part of my groups... and them being able to play other than basic fighters was enabled by, "Need help? Make a roll on ___, and on success, the others or I can give you suggestions"

I run my games as games first, story-generators second. Story constrained by rules and setting.