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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7292714" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>I don't; as I always assume the roll you get represents your best attempt, possibly of many, and you're simply not going to do any better than what's indicated by that one roll until and unless something materially (e.g. someone else helps you search) or mechanically (e.g. you gain a level) changes. There ain't no such thing as 'take 20' round here.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Absolutely.</p><p></p><p>Correct. Faulty reasoning.</p><p></p><p>You can be 100% confident that you did not find a seam. However, you can not be 100% confident that there is no seam there to find; only that whether a seam is present there or not, you didn't find one.</p><p></p><p> [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION] - to your point about combat rolls vs. non-combat rolls - they're different things. With very few exceptions, combat die rolls and their narrative outcomes are both easy to tie together and obvious to all. Many non-combat situations are similar e.g. a failed die roll for climbing a wall has immediate and obvious narrative consequences. </p><p></p><p>However, in many other non-combat situations the die rolls and their narrative outcomes are not easy to tie together and the narrative outcome(s) may not become obvious for some time, if ever at all. Thus, what the players and characters get is the narrative (i.e. what the character observes) without player-side mechanical rationale. The secret door example is one such. Most social interactions involving die rolls should be another: while role-playing an interaction the player states out-of-character that she'll be trying to intimidate the thief into revealing who hired him; the DM rolls the intimidate check and works the results into her role-playing of the thief.</p><p></p><p>And yes this means you have to trust the DM to do these things in good faith...but if you don't trust the DM, why are you even there?</p><p></p><p>I meant natural 20, for what it's worth; and yes there should have been a roll. There was doubt before the roll, and in this case where a 20 came up depending on the circumstances there's either less doubt or no doubt remaining after the roll.</p><p></p><p>An example where narrative outcome is immediately obvious and thus the player rolls it: a character trying to lift a portcullis. She's not sure if she can do it (hence, doubt) but gives it her best shot. She rolls a 20 on the die. Portcullis rattles a bit but otherwise doesn't budge. Doubt removed. Now if she still has reason to think she should have been able to lift it she might start looking for, say, something holding the portcullis in place - a restraining spike, perhaps - the finding and removal of which would give her another roll to lift it as something has both materially changed (the spike is out) and mechanically changed (the DC just went down by a whole bunch).</p><p></p><p>Lan-"out for a day and this thing explodes"-efan</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 7292714, member: 29398"] I don't; as I always assume the roll you get represents your best attempt, possibly of many, and you're simply not going to do any better than what's indicated by that one roll until and unless something materially (e.g. someone else helps you search) or mechanically (e.g. you gain a level) changes. There ain't no such thing as 'take 20' round here. Absolutely. Correct. Faulty reasoning. You can be 100% confident that you did not find a seam. However, you can not be 100% confident that there is no seam there to find; only that whether a seam is present there or not, you didn't find one. [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION] - to your point about combat rolls vs. non-combat rolls - they're different things. With very few exceptions, combat die rolls and their narrative outcomes are both easy to tie together and obvious to all. Many non-combat situations are similar e.g. a failed die roll for climbing a wall has immediate and obvious narrative consequences. However, in many other non-combat situations the die rolls and their narrative outcomes are not easy to tie together and the narrative outcome(s) may not become obvious for some time, if ever at all. Thus, what the players and characters get is the narrative (i.e. what the character observes) without player-side mechanical rationale. The secret door example is one such. Most social interactions involving die rolls should be another: while role-playing an interaction the player states out-of-character that she'll be trying to intimidate the thief into revealing who hired him; the DM rolls the intimidate check and works the results into her role-playing of the thief. And yes this means you have to trust the DM to do these things in good faith...but if you don't trust the DM, why are you even there? I meant natural 20, for what it's worth; and yes there should have been a roll. There was doubt before the roll, and in this case where a 20 came up depending on the circumstances there's either less doubt or no doubt remaining after the roll. An example where narrative outcome is immediately obvious and thus the player rolls it: a character trying to lift a portcullis. She's not sure if she can do it (hence, doubt) but gives it her best shot. She rolls a 20 on the die. Portcullis rattles a bit but otherwise doesn't budge. Doubt removed. Now if she still has reason to think she should have been able to lift it she might start looking for, say, something holding the portcullis in place - a restraining spike, perhaps - the finding and removal of which would give her another roll to lift it as something has both materially changed (the spike is out) and mechanically changed (the DC just went down by a whole bunch). Lan-"out for a day and this thing explodes"-efan [/QUOTE]
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