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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7297018" data-attributes="member: 29398">So to sum up: D&D as sport rather than D&D as war. OK, got it. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Where I'm not willing to make that assumption.  Their one roll determines success or failure.Even though the DC is the same the actual locks themselves are not, and something about the first one stumped you. (and if they were in fact identical e.g. mass-produced prison cell locks I'd give you a significant bonus were you to try the first one again, and you'd get a new roll as something material - in this case your knowledge of that specific lock - had changed).How come I opened the last new jar of coffee with my bare hands but for this one - otherwise identical - I need a tool?Because the assumption is that your initial roll already included that attempt, and any others you may make under that particular set of conditions and circumstances.  This is explicitly intended to put a stop to the notion of simply rolling until you succeed*.  If you want another roll you have to do something different, or gain a level, or gain in the relevant stat (Dexterity, in this case).  Straight from 1e, and IMO still the best.* - in case it isn't already obvious, while 3e has its good and bad points the one rule it had that made me want to vomit every time I met it is take-20.  Take-10 isn't great either, but at least it still allows a chance of failure.That's my point: there shouldn't be a "try again" unless something is materially (and significantly) different from what was in place for the first roll.In the altar example: the party Rogue tries - and by "tries" this assumes she throws every trick she has at it, possibly taking a few tens of minutes - and fails (as determined by her roll) to find a hidden compartment. What can the party do to give her another shot?  Dispel Evil or similar on the altar, if successful, would in my eyes be enough of a change to give her another roll...maybe the evil aura was part of what was concealing the compartment and-or clouding her judgement.  A Bard might be able to pull a legend or tale out of his memory that has info on how these evil guys build their altars and where they put the secret bits - boom, another roll (quietly modified by me based on whether the Bard's info is accurate or not).Oh, and rolls like this are always made by me as DM.  Why?  Becuase as the character doesn't know if she failed due to her own bad form or because there is in fact nothing there to find, I don't want the player knowing this either.Lan-"sometimes it's best not to look too closely at where Bards pull their tales from"-efan</blockquote>

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