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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 7297219">If she has an aura of lust, beauty and attractiveness, then wouldn't that be a compulsion effect?Otherwise I agree the players are in the right here.  There's no reason for them to find the goddess attractive if they wouldn't normally.  But if the goddess has a mind-affecting aura that makes those around her find her attractive, then there's a need to call for a check.  You don't necessarily have to declare the effect before the check is made, and I often like to interrupt myself to call for rolls.DM: You suddenly feel a great presence before you and make a Will save.*players roll, passes, fails, whatever*DM: Johnny, Bill and Susan immediately turn their eyes to see the most beautiful woman they have ever laid eyes on.  You find her impossibly attractive.  Frank on the other hand does not seem to be so enthralled.If I simply said the god appeared, and did not call for a save it might sound more like:DM: Before you stands a giant of a woman, nearly 20 feet tall, embodying the ideal of bodily perfection.  -in this case, I am not saying she's not Bills perfect woman or Susan's perfect woman, but that the goddess embodies a more existential or social construct of what a beautiful woman should appear to be.  Likewise, I am not calling for a check for any of this.  Even if we were to take the position of others before and say the aura of the goddess is so powerful, everyone fails automatically and thus there is no uncertainty here, we can of course still call for the roll, or allow those who want to argue they're not affected to make a check.  What harm does it do?  Besides, the idea that when a powerful being appears in the presence of mortals no matter how great their power some still try and fight their godly influence is a staple of fantasy.  I am a firm believer that you are ultimately in charge of your character.  While I ask for folks to wait for me to call for checks, you run it, you roll it, it's one thing that appeals to me about 4E making saves into defenses.  It puts control of the effect in the hands of the wielder (usually the player).  DM's rolling for how well I do something or how I feel about something is...odd.  I've seen the practice, and I don't like it.As for "secret dice rolls" I think it can be useful, but ultimately, without knowing the DC or the reason for the roll, the actual number is meaningless to the viewer.</blockquote>

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