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<blockquote data-quote="Charlaquin" data-source="post: 7300451" data-attributes="member: 6779196"><p>I don't agree that it is, at least in the cases I was referring to. Many of the counter-arguments to the DM decides the rolls approach seem to be based on the assumption that it is the flavor text, not the goal and approach, that is the determining factor in success and failure. Not all such counter-arguments, but many, and those were the ones I was addressing with my post.</p><p></p><p></p><p>As the person in control of the character, it is you who determines what answer your character "would come up with." I think you're also giving me way too much credit at being able to convey information with subtlety if you assume Batman is going to come to different conclusions from the information I provide than you are. I'm not the Riddler. I'm not going to come up with hints subtle enough that only Batman will catch on to them.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't disagree that some players are bad at recognizing social cues, I just think that's the province of the Insight skill, not the Persuasion skill. Insight is explicitly about reading social cues, whereas Persuasion is about making an argument sound convincing. You could argue that it doesn't make sense to separate those social abilities as separate skills, but in 5th edition D&D, they are. If a player is bad at recognizing social cues and wants to play a character who is great at it, they should probably put some points into Wisdom and take Proficiency in Insight, because recognizing those cues is a passive task that I'm just going to give you information about based on your passive Wisdom (Insight) score.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, when there's something important to be found, I try to telegraph it, so there will likely be hints that the drawer might be a good place to look. If not, or if the players don't pick up on those hints, I imagine after looking under the rug and finding nothing with no roll, the players will recognize that there is nothing to be found under the rug and try looking elsewhere. If one roll represents your exhaustive search of the entire room, then you can completely miss the thing in the drawer with a crappy roll. On the other hand, if a roll simply resolves uncertainty in a single action, there's no reason the players can't actually exhaustively search the entire room. The difference is, that exhaustive search is conducted by actually talking to each other about what the characters are doing and describing how they interact with the world, and how the world reacts to those interactions (which is the whole reason I play D&D) instead of choosing one of 18 buttons to push and letting random number generators decide the results. If you don't think to look in the drawer, that's on you, not the dice. Now, YMMV, but I and many people I know, prefer to succeed and fail on the merit of their own choices, not on the results of random number generators.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think you are overestimating the cleverness required to think of places to search or angles to take in attempting to persuade people.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Batman will only get automatic success if his approach doesn't have a reasonable chance of failing to accomplish his goal. For example, if the object he is looking for (let's say it's a key) is sitting in the drawer of a desk, and he says, "I search for the key by looking through all the desk drawers", then yeah, he's going to succeed. As would you if you described the same action, which doesn't take a tremendous amount of creativity to think of. However, if the key is hidden in a false bottom inside one of the drawers, then looking through all of the desk drawers has a chance of succeeding at finding the key and a chance of failing to find the key. Batman will have to make a check, and with his -1 will probably not have a great chance of finding it. However, if you describe the same action with your minimum check of 25, you're going to find it without a roll because your minimum check is higher than the DC to find it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Except that, as illustrated above, some approaches have both a reasonable chance of success and a reasonable chance of failure to achieve their goal, in which case the uncertainty needs to be resolved. This is where skills come in, because they allow you to weight the chances in favor of success when your character is good at a thing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Charlaquin, post: 7300451, member: 6779196"] I don't agree that it is, at least in the cases I was referring to. Many of the counter-arguments to the DM decides the rolls approach seem to be based on the assumption that it is the flavor text, not the goal and approach, that is the determining factor in success and failure. Not all such counter-arguments, but many, and those were the ones I was addressing with my post. As the person in control of the character, it is you who determines what answer your character "would come up with." I think you're also giving me way too much credit at being able to convey information with subtlety if you assume Batman is going to come to different conclusions from the information I provide than you are. I'm not the Riddler. I'm not going to come up with hints subtle enough that only Batman will catch on to them. I don't disagree that some players are bad at recognizing social cues, I just think that's the province of the Insight skill, not the Persuasion skill. Insight is explicitly about reading social cues, whereas Persuasion is about making an argument sound convincing. You could argue that it doesn't make sense to separate those social abilities as separate skills, but in 5th edition D&D, they are. If a player is bad at recognizing social cues and wants to play a character who is great at it, they should probably put some points into Wisdom and take Proficiency in Insight, because recognizing those cues is a passive task that I'm just going to give you information about based on your passive Wisdom (Insight) score. Well, when there's something important to be found, I try to telegraph it, so there will likely be hints that the drawer might be a good place to look. If not, or if the players don't pick up on those hints, I imagine after looking under the rug and finding nothing with no roll, the players will recognize that there is nothing to be found under the rug and try looking elsewhere. If one roll represents your exhaustive search of the entire room, then you can completely miss the thing in the drawer with a crappy roll. On the other hand, if a roll simply resolves uncertainty in a single action, there's no reason the players can't actually exhaustively search the entire room. The difference is, that exhaustive search is conducted by actually talking to each other about what the characters are doing and describing how they interact with the world, and how the world reacts to those interactions (which is the whole reason I play D&D) instead of choosing one of 18 buttons to push and letting random number generators decide the results. If you don't think to look in the drawer, that's on you, not the dice. Now, YMMV, but I and many people I know, prefer to succeed and fail on the merit of their own choices, not on the results of random number generators. I think you are overestimating the cleverness required to think of places to search or angles to take in attempting to persuade people. Batman will only get automatic success if his approach doesn't have a reasonable chance of failing to accomplish his goal. For example, if the object he is looking for (let's say it's a key) is sitting in the drawer of a desk, and he says, "I search for the key by looking through all the desk drawers", then yeah, he's going to succeed. As would you if you described the same action, which doesn't take a tremendous amount of creativity to think of. However, if the key is hidden in a false bottom inside one of the drawers, then looking through all of the desk drawers has a chance of succeeding at finding the key and a chance of failing to find the key. Batman will have to make a check, and with his -1 will probably not have a great chance of finding it. However, if you describe the same action with your minimum check of 25, you're going to find it without a roll because your minimum check is higher than the DC to find it. Except that, as illustrated above, some approaches have both a reasonable chance of success and a reasonable chance of failure to achieve their goal, in which case the uncertainty needs to be resolved. This is where skills come in, because they allow you to weight the chances in favor of success when your character is good at a thing. [/QUOTE]
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