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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7300980" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>First graph - i find it odd that as much as i have said the goal should not in my games or in appaoaches like mine play much if any role in the determination of the action and its result (exception for where the goal provides clarity for an insufficiently clear action) folks seem to think its worth it to tell me how goal is not the same as approach or method and that goal should not be the determiner of auto-s/f. That seems to be more agreeing with me than not but it often seems presented in the reverse.</p><p></p><p>Second graph - As i answered this in my earlier post for a case of the more generic wording of action where the GM wanted it to be that the table could not be moved or "weighs a ton" , let me cover it here in more depth for the more likely action plus roll case i would encounter in my games that you have now brought up... </p><p></p><p> **HAD** I not described the table correctly or adequately to make it clear it was heavy *AND* it was important to the scene that the table cannot be moved alone, i would tell the player that its obvious to their character that the table is way too heavy to move based on their experience with moving, pushing hauling stuff it and a closer examination. Then I would ask them to describe their approach if they still want to try and move it - pretty much as described above. this would likely be described as a case of what they figured out when they tried, not as a case of it being as obvious just by looking, given i did not include that originally... again unless that particular element is important or critical to the scene.</p><p></p><p>However, a key element is this - if it was *important to the scene* that the table cannot be moved by one person, then (barring just flat out error on my part) i *would* have thrown in a word like massive, heavy or something into the original description. Or if it was important to the scene that the table cannot be moved alone but it looks like it could (plot point of why is this table stuck here so solidly i can't move it") that might be not an error or omission in description at all. </p><p></p><p>If it was *not* important to the scene whether or not the table can be moved, then i would at that assign in my mind up a description of the table that made it possible the table can be moved and then adjudicate the result as normally - especially if the character was a high strength proficient in athletics character. 17 is enough to beat moderate DCs so... likely its a success and i continue appropriately.</p><p></p><p>Remember the rule of yes i mentioned from time to time - "say yes unless their is a compelling reason to say no." odds are with a 17 (esp for a high strength and athletic character), the result is a moved table. 17 beats moderate DC and moving a table is something even i can do and my physical abilities which are well below what would pass as moderate in that game world. heck, my own </p><p> personal stats would not be legal scores on a point buy where 8 is the lowest, but i can move every table in my house and most tables i encounter. </p><p></p><p>So, barring a compelling reason to say no... on a roll of 17, you move the table and we move on to what happens then.</p><p></p><p>hope that helps.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7300980, member: 6919838"] First graph - i find it odd that as much as i have said the goal should not in my games or in appaoaches like mine play much if any role in the determination of the action and its result (exception for where the goal provides clarity for an insufficiently clear action) folks seem to think its worth it to tell me how goal is not the same as approach or method and that goal should not be the determiner of auto-s/f. That seems to be more agreeing with me than not but it often seems presented in the reverse. Second graph - As i answered this in my earlier post for a case of the more generic wording of action where the GM wanted it to be that the table could not be moved or "weighs a ton" , let me cover it here in more depth for the more likely action plus roll case i would encounter in my games that you have now brought up... **HAD** I not described the table correctly or adequately to make it clear it was heavy *AND* it was important to the scene that the table cannot be moved alone, i would tell the player that its obvious to their character that the table is way too heavy to move based on their experience with moving, pushing hauling stuff it and a closer examination. Then I would ask them to describe their approach if they still want to try and move it - pretty much as described above. this would likely be described as a case of what they figured out when they tried, not as a case of it being as obvious just by looking, given i did not include that originally... again unless that particular element is important or critical to the scene. However, a key element is this - if it was *important to the scene* that the table cannot be moved by one person, then (barring just flat out error on my part) i *would* have thrown in a word like massive, heavy or something into the original description. Or if it was important to the scene that the table cannot be moved alone but it looks like it could (plot point of why is this table stuck here so solidly i can't move it") that might be not an error or omission in description at all. If it was *not* important to the scene whether or not the table can be moved, then i would at that assign in my mind up a description of the table that made it possible the table can be moved and then adjudicate the result as normally - especially if the character was a high strength proficient in athletics character. 17 is enough to beat moderate DCs so... likely its a success and i continue appropriately. Remember the rule of yes i mentioned from time to time - "say yes unless their is a compelling reason to say no." odds are with a 17 (esp for a high strength and athletic character), the result is a moved table. 17 beats moderate DC and moving a table is something even i can do and my physical abilities which are well below what would pass as moderate in that game world. heck, my own personal stats would not be legal scores on a point buy where 8 is the lowest, but i can move every table in my house and most tables i encounter. So, barring a compelling reason to say no... on a roll of 17, you move the table and we move on to what happens then. hope that helps. [/QUOTE]
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