D&D 4E Playing 4E without miniatures and the battle grid.

[Melkor]

Hi folks,

Is this something any of you do regularly?

If so, how does it work, and how do you adjudicate positioning for powers that shift, slide, pull, etc?

Does your DM keep a piece of graph paper behind the DM screen and just use that to describe the action to the players?

I would like to know if anyone has been successful doing this in 4E because it seems like when our group stops the narrative to pull out the map and minis, the game flow is interrupted, and suspension of disbelief and 'in character' play becomes more like a tactical board game. I'm not saying this happens to everyone, it's just my experience based on our sessions of 4E.

Thanks!

 

[P1NBACK]

I would check out LostSoul's "fiction first" hack of 4E. I haven't played it, but it looks really good.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/278034-d-d-4th-edition-hack-fiction-first-playtest.html

Outside of that, I'd say read up on the 14 or so pages of "4E and realistic" and my many attempts to explain how using fiction to explain powers instead of the name of the powers works nicely and enhances the "immersion" once combat begins so we don't go into "boardgame mode" - i know - it happens.

So, my first suggestion would be to never allow a player to say the name of her power. Have them describe it (using the little italicized example they give you as a starting point). Then determine the effects. Some people even give bonuses for really good descriptions (like a +1 or 2 to hit with the power).

Maybe even start with only describing encounter and daily powers at first.

Anyways, hope this helps.

 

[malcolm_n]

My friends and I played 4e from the start like this, but I also got really good at this by DMing 3e and 3.5 since 2002. I just tell them if they can safely get into that position and they roll with it. It's fair, and we all get our powers/opportunity attacks as they go. The only time we used a map was our fight against orcus, and that ended up being a joke.

It comes down to trusting your dm

 

[Thanlis]

I agree, the Fiction First hack is really good. The question came up on RPG Stack Exchange recently, and got a bunch of answers, including Fiction First. Some of the others might also be useful.

 

[Melkor]

Thanks for the response.

That "Fiction First" link isn't working for me. Can someone relink it?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Throughout the 90s, I ran all my games without benefit of minis or maps. That included 2e AD&D, Storyteller, and Champions!. Champions! has almost the need for a hex map that 4e has for a grid, since it includes detailed movement powers and actions and involuntary movement. Still managed to muddle through, though. You and your players need to be very familiar with the system to get away with it - and your players need to have a high level of trust in you - otherwise, the mapless game will either devolve into arugments, or all the movement-related abilities will turn more or less useless.

It helps to describe things in terms of actions and effects instead of distances. "Mayhem is a half-move away from you, Destruction is farther away, but still within the -2 range band of your EB." Oh, I should really use a 4e example:

"The Orc Warlord is a double-move away from you, you're only just out of reach of the Orc Soldier and he's trying to get closer."

"Crap, can I Thunderwave the Orc Soldier off the balcony?" "No, that's farther than you could push him, but you could force him into the Zone in the center of the room."

...

 

[malcolm_n]

Throughout the 90s, I ran all my games without benefit of minis or maps. That included 2e AD&D, Storyteller, and Champions!. Champions! has almost the need for a hex map that 4e has for a grid, since it includes detailed movement powers and actions and involuntary movement. Still managed to muddle through, though. You and your players need to be very familiar with the system to get away with it - and your players need to have a high level of trust in you - otherwise, the mapless game will either devolve into arugments, or all the movement-related abilities will turn more or less useless.

It helps to describe things in terms of actions and effects instead of distances. "Mayhem is a half-move away from you, Destruction is farther away, but still within the -2 range band of your EB." Oh, I should really use a 4e example:

"The Orc Warlord is a double-move away from you, you're only just out of reach of the Orc Soldier and he's trying to get closer."

"Crap, can I Thunderwave the Orc Soldier off the balcony?" "No, that's farther than you could push him, but you could force him into the Zone in the center of the room."

...

That's exactly what we've done for ages.

 

[Odhanan]

I did a poll on this topic on ENWorld a few months ago. The question I believe was "Do you use miniatures and mats for your 4E game?" with options for all the time, usually, not usually and never.

The usually and all the time options totalled about 90-95% of the votes at the time. I can't make a search on the forums so I'm unlikely to find it back, but yeah: the vast, overwhelming majority of 4E players seem to be using miniatures.

 

[The Human Target]

I can't imagine playing 4E without some sort of visual representation.

Yes, it does feel like a tactical minis game when combat starts.

That's because its supposed to become a tactical minis game when combat starts.

I'd probably switch systems were I you.

 

[im_robertb]

I would not play D&D without a battle map, and here's why:

D&D is not a roleplaying game. It is a fantasy tactical boardgame with RPG-game style mechanics, based on small squad combat. This is why 300 page rulebooks have only 30 pages of fluff. The roleplaying part is what you add to it.