playing a paladin in world that is not black and white

[Elf Witch]

I hate being the one to start another paladin thread but I need some help.

I understand that a paladin is supposed to uphold and follow the law of a legitimate goverment. Here is my question what if the paladin has sworn and oath to the ruler of one Kingdom and that includes gathering information and maybe going around the legal system of another Kingdom?

In Eberron my paladin is from a Cyre she is loyal to who she views as the rightful ruler of Cyre. With Cyre gone and its people scattered to the winds she is in Breland helping as best she can the plight of the refugees.

There is a man who is behind the plot to kill as many Cyre refugees as he can. Now the Breland goverment has put a price on his head and I am part of the group going after him. The King wants the man delivered to his agents not the goverment of Breland. So my character has a method to communicate with some Cyrean Avengers to let them know we have the man and arrange for them to take him.

Now there has been some debate over this with my DM he thinks that I am close to violating my alignment.

I am confused on one hand the game is not run in a black and white way. The DM plays up the mistrust of countries that have just come out of a major war.

He is really playing up how badly the Cyreans have been screwed. Their lands destroyed, some of their people slaughtered by the elves (when fleeing the destruction they ended up in the elven lands), to losing any voice in the new threaty and basically a lost and defeated people.

He also plays up the fact that in the last war the Cyreans were the ones in the right there leader was the rightful ruler and the war started when the others decided not to follow the law of inhertience.

He wants a world that is not friendly a world full of intrigue and back stabbing but he expects a paladin to be straight from the players handbook no deviation.

I really don't see how to play that. So how does one play a paladin in a world like this?

 

[Storm Raven]

"Lawful" does not mean "will slavishly obey the laws of every nation". It means "will follow a particular set of laws, a code of conduct, or some sort of authority". If I read your question correctly, your paladin is in Breland, and his/her alignment is being called into question because you are not following the laws of Breland. Given that your character is loyal to Cyre, it seems to me that acting in accord with the wishes of the presumed ruler of Cyre is acting perfectly within your alignment (assuming there are no evil/good axis problems). You are following the law - superior law (Cyre) trumps subordinate law (Breland) in your hierarchy of obedience. I would communicate this to the DM, and then adhere to that standard.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Unfortunately, this is the kind of thing that needs to be thrashed out at character creation time. If your DM wants a morally ambiguous world, he has an obligation to either disallow paladins as being too much trouble, or make it explicitely clear to the player what his expectations are. Failing that, he has an obligation to compromise with you and come up with a reasonable 'code' now that accomodates both your playstyle and his worldview as best it can.

Personally, I think your paladin is spot on - her loyalties are clear, and she swore an oath to obey the King of Cyre. She's bringing the evil man to justice, which he might not face if returned to the Breland authorities. If the situation were slightly different -- if she didn't know for sure that this was the man, or if his guilt was disputable, and she knew he wouldn't get a fair shake from the King of Cyre -- there might be some room for doubt on her part. But that's the good kind of gray, where the DM doesn't punish the player for what she can't know, but uses it as a good plot hook.

 

[jollyninja]

A paladin has to hold himself to a higher standard then other people. Even if everyone else exists in a state of moral decay, the paladin is the last shining hope for the way things should be. Lead by example. Stand up to those who's morals may need to be checked. in short, just because everyone else has lost sight of the difference between good and evil does not mean the paladin can. Be strong, warrior of light, no matter how weak those around you are. Be the light in the darkness, the knight errant, show everyone what it is that your people stood for and inspire them to stand for it again. That's how I'd play it anyway

as far as this specific example goes, It comes down to who you think the legitimate authority is. If it is your contention that the ruler of cyre should be king of all and any who say otherwise are usurpers, then you are fine. If you are accepting the fact that this is an impossibility and just trying to pick up the pieces, The government of Breland is the legitimate authority. The one you are supposed to be respecting, as a paladin. You could always just fall and become a jaded lackey of the king of nowhere. while not an optimal build, an ex paladin/rogue/assassin is a really cool character.

 

[Felix]

Option 1
Paladins are not allowed to decieve in any way and must follow the laws of the region they are in.

Consequence: Paladins will never be agent provocateurs or be able to carry assignments outside of their region.

Option 2
Paladins adhere to one particular chosen law, otherwise act lawfully and honorably, and are able to decieve others on a case-by-case basis.

Consequence: Paladins will be able to prosecute missions outside of thier home region; they will be able to decieve others if doing so is necessary to the successful completion of their task and not otherwise dishonorable; their code of conduct prohibition against acting dishonorably (not lying) will have to be very well defined by the GM and Player to avoid any misunderstandings.

---

Talk to your DM and figure out what he expects of you and of paladins.

 

[Elf Witch]

A paladin has to hold himself to a higher standard then other people. Even if everyone else exists in a state of moral decay, the paladin is the last shining hope for the way things should be. Lead by example. Stand up to those who's morals may need to be checked. in short, just because everyone else has lost sight of the difference between good and evil does not mean the paladin can. Be strong, warrior of light, no matter how weak those around you are. Be the light in the darkness, the knight errant, show everyone what it is that your people stood for and inspire them to stand for it again. That's how I'd play it anyway

as far as this specific example goes, It comes down to who you think the legitimate authority is. If it is your contention that the ruler of cyre should be king of all and any who say otherwise are usurpers, then you are fine. If you are accepting the fact that this is an impossibility and just trying to pick up the pieces, The government of Breland is the legitimate authority. The one you are supposed to be respecting, as a paladin. You could always just fall and become a jaded lackey of the king of nowhere. while not an optimal build, an ex paladin/rogue/assassin is a really cool character.

This is my DMs view that since Cyre is gone and the King of Cyre is a ruler in exile that my palladin would not violate Breland's laws and follow the orders given by a King without a country.

To me it is more complicated than that. The oaths sworn to uphold Cyrean law and to protect the royal family just didn't go away in the day of Mourning.

The reason why the King wants this man is because there is a plot to rid Breland of the refugees. In the last few months several refugee camps have been overun by an orc/goblin army outfitted with Breland military weapons, and every man woman and child killed.

We don't know how high up in in the goverment this plot goes. That is why we want to question this man ourselves.

If I do fall and lose my paladinhood over this then I will continue as fallen paladin an take the prestige class Cyrean Avenger.

I have to wonder why DMs like to come up with these situations that seem to put a paladin into a damned if you do damned if you don't sitaution. It seems to have become the thing to do to make a paladin fall from grace.

 

[tzor]

Before I begin, I would like to summarize what I think is the dilemma, or the apparent dilemma that your paladin faces as it appears to me from your post. Paladin under the command of A enters nation B to find a person wanted by both A and B and turn him to the agents of A, even though paladin is currently in the land of B. You currently have the person.

I don’t see how this is, as it is described so far, a violation of paladin code, or even a violation of a lawful alignment. You are, first and foremost, an agent of the Crye King, and as such you have duties and obligations to him. Assuming that you are not currently surrounded by Breland agents of the law, “OK Clancy, take the boys and surround the house,” you are under no obligation to hand him over to Breland custody.

There is an interesting situation if you were surrounded by Breland agents of the law, but once again duties and obligations have the highest priority. Here we get into more complex areas, effectively “law breaking” for lawful people; the ability to break a law and accepting the responsibility for doing so. A lot of this depends on a number of unknown factors, and whether other options are available.

 

[Elf Witch]

Before I begin, I would like to summarize what I think is the dilemma, or the apparent dilemma that your paladin faces as it appears to me from your post. Paladin under the command of A enters nation B to find a person wanted by both A and B and turn him to the agents of A, even though paladin is currently in the land of B. You currently have the person.

I don’t see how this is, as it is described so far, a violation of paladin code, or even a violation of a lawful alignment. You are, first and foremost, an agent of the Crye King, and as such you have duties and obligations to him. Assuming that you are not currently surrounded by Breland agents of the law, “OK Clancy, take the boys and surround the house,” you are under no obligation to hand him over to Breland custody.

There is an interesting situation if you were surrounded by Breland agents of the law, but once again duties and obligations have the highest priority. Here we get into more complex areas, effectively “law breaking” for lawful people; the ability to break a law and accepting the responsibility for doing so. A lot of this depends on a number of unknown factors, and whether other options are available.

We don't have him yet and the plans the party has is to turn him over to the Breland military in Starlaska. The rest of the party are made of up of people not from Breland or Cyre so they just care about getting paid.

The plan that I have is once we catch the guy I will notify the cyrean avengers who are waiting for us In Starlaska and they will sneakness to take the prisoner from us hopefully without getting caught and avoiding a conflict with the party.

 

[Storm Raven]

This is my DMs view that since Cyre is gone and the King of Cyre is a ruler in exile that my palladin would not violate Breland's laws and follow the orders given by a King without a country.

Ask your DM what position he has regarding the various governments-in-exile during WWII. Poland, Belgium, the Netherlands, Greece, France, and so on were all occupied by Axis powers, and their governments fled, effectively making them governments without a country. Were those loyal to those governments behaving in a non-lawful manner when they resisted the orders of the powers occupying the physical territory of their nations?

Legitimate authority is not conferred by possession of a particular piece of real estate.

 

[billd91]

This is my DMs view that since Cyre is gone and the King of Cyre is a ruler in exile that my palladin would not violate Breland's laws and follow the orders given by a King without a country.

To me it is more complicated than that. The oaths sworn to uphold Cyrean law and to protect the royal family just didn't go away in the day of Mourning.

The reason why the King wants this man is because there is a plot to rid Breland of the refugees. In the last few months several refugee camps have been overun by an orc/goblin army outfitted with Breland military weapons, and every man woman and child killed.

We don't know how high up in in the goverment this plot goes. That is why we want to question this man ourselves.

If I do fall and lose my paladinhood over this then I will continue as fallen paladin an take the prestige class Cyrean Avenger.

There's nothing wrong with delivering the man to your king under the proviso you'll also turn him over to the legitimate Breland authorities when the Cyrean king is done. Typically, a ruler in exile has to abide by the laws of his host country so, while the Cyrean king may have good reasons to want to question the man himself, if he tries to mete out legal justice he's in the wrong. Legally speaking.
You certainly can follow the orders of a king without a country, but you have to be careful since that king's orders may fly in the face of the rule of law... which is held by his (potentially un-)gracious hosts in Breland.

What I would do in this situation is tell your DM that there's no and never has been a question of alignment. There may be a question of the paladin's code, but not of alignment in any sense of the term. There are multiple legitimate authorities to follow here and they may be in conflict, so you have to pick the right one to follow based on your character's oaths.
Then, I would insist on being the one to take the man to the king and not turn him simply over to Cyrean Avengers. After all, you have to make sure the prisoner can then be turned over to the Breland authorities, which is the right and just thing to do. Whether or not the Breland authorities are likely to also behave right and justly may be in question, but that does not mean your paladin should act wrongly or let her own king make her act wrongly.