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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9086149" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>I think the issue here is analysis has to be specific, but solutions need to be holistic. I can't do an analysis of every monk with every combo of feats to ASIs at every level versus paladins of the same ilk, for example. </p><p></p><p>And I think this is where Mistwell and I are sort of coming from. Yes, a monk with feats is going to outperform a paladin without... but that same thing is true about a Fighter with feats compared to a Paladin without, or vice-versa. When it becomes a build choice, then it is a different animal. No one in their right mind is upset that a Ranger with Archery style is better with a bow than the Fighter who primarily invested in strength. We aren't even upset when the Ranger is doing better at skill checks or has buff spells. We expect those things as build options. </p><p></p><p>Where the monk is running into walls is that there are no build options anymore. Seriously, what do you do with a monk? Every monk invests in Dexterity then wisdom. Currently any well-build monk takes Mobile. And every monk uses either a staff or a spear. All of them. There isn't a second "equally good" build for monks. There is a single path.... and that path is under-performing. </p><p></p><p>Monks don't get access to the magical gear that many other warriors can use to increase their AC, damage, and or accuracy. Especially with this ODnD version. This ODnD version doesn't allow access to ANY weapon combat feats. Yes, if you balance monks against the access to those things and then take those things away from the other classes, then you have Monks that could be too powerful, but if you DON'T account for those things... then you have monks that are still underpowered. </p><p></p><p>And accounting for them can be as simple as "we need monk specific magical items and monk specific feats to balance these paths to versatility and power" but it does need to not be ignored, because it plays into the greater whole.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9086149, member: 6801228"] I think the issue here is analysis has to be specific, but solutions need to be holistic. I can't do an analysis of every monk with every combo of feats to ASIs at every level versus paladins of the same ilk, for example. And I think this is where Mistwell and I are sort of coming from. Yes, a monk with feats is going to outperform a paladin without... but that same thing is true about a Fighter with feats compared to a Paladin without, or vice-versa. When it becomes a build choice, then it is a different animal. No one in their right mind is upset that a Ranger with Archery style is better with a bow than the Fighter who primarily invested in strength. We aren't even upset when the Ranger is doing better at skill checks or has buff spells. We expect those things as build options. Where the monk is running into walls is that there are no build options anymore. Seriously, what do you do with a monk? Every monk invests in Dexterity then wisdom. Currently any well-build monk takes Mobile. And every monk uses either a staff or a spear. All of them. There isn't a second "equally good" build for monks. There is a single path.... and that path is under-performing. Monks don't get access to the magical gear that many other warriors can use to increase their AC, damage, and or accuracy. Especially with this ODnD version. This ODnD version doesn't allow access to ANY weapon combat feats. Yes, if you balance monks against the access to those things and then take those things away from the other classes, then you have Monks that could be too powerful, but if you DON'T account for those things... then you have monks that are still underpowered. And accounting for them can be as simple as "we need monk specific magical items and monk specific feats to balance these paths to versatility and power" but it does need to not be ignored, because it plays into the greater whole. [/QUOTE]
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