D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Spell Discussion

[Mirrorrorrim]

The Verbal component can be loud like a scroll chanter for an audience to hear, or quiet as a personal meditation to focus ones thoughts and intentions.

The player decides how loud the V is depending on purpose.

Similarly, the Somatic component can be a spectacular dance or a subtle shift of finger gestures. The player decides.

There are rules descriptions for Verbal and Somatic components in the PH. They are not subtle. They are a built in requirement and limitation for having access to all that magical power. It absolutely functions as a balancing mechanic compared to the functionality of non-spellcasters, whether intended or not.

Being able to use a Verbal or Somatic component "quietly" or "subtly" is not a thing without a special rule saying so (Sorcerer Metamagic), or a house rule.

 

[Yaarel]

There are rules descriptions for Verbal and Somatic components in the PH. They are not subtle. They are a built in requirement and limitation for having access to all that magical power. It absolutely functions as a balancing mechanic compared to the functionality of no-spellcasters, whether intended or not.

Being able to use a Verbal or Somatic component "quietly" or "subtly" is not a thing without a special rule saying so (Sorcerer Metamagic), or a house rule.

To be clear, the costly gp component serves no balancing mechanic whatsoever. The availability of gp depends on the campaign setting, and on player ingenuity. In any case, most gp costs are a trivial amount at a higher slot when players already have an excess of gp with nothing to spend it on. Even for the two or three spells whose gp cost might be a disincentive, it is cleaner to design a better method to reduce spamming. All gp costs are "visual pollution" within the game mechanics.

Similarly, the V and S component are unreliable for game balance. They are a vestigial tradition only.

Perhaps V and S could serve a balance, but it would require a game design rethink. Meanwhile, the components are often untrue. For example, a Bard who is playing a flute would cast spells without either V or S.

Ultimately, the 5e game is better when deleting the spell component line.

Each class or subclass defines the methods for how to cast spells.

To have components in the spell description gets in the way.

 

[Chaosmancer]

He also wasn't playing D&D or in a D&D movie.

Funny you mention DnD movies. Saphina is a Red Wizard of Thay, very specifically.


I count spells with no Verbal components:
@ 0:32
@ 0:39
@ 0:50
@2:20
And the like six spells in a row she cast @3:30

@3:28 is iffy whether or not she was saying anything

And she was pretty quiet with the first spell the scene starts with, and the ones @ 2:07, @2:27, @3:48 was practically a whisper

And that is just the one fight scene. She does a few other obviously magical effects throughout the movie with no verbal components. In a DnD film, sanctioned by DnD. And no super loud chanting that can be heard over 20 yards away in the middle of a heavy melee of clashing steel.

 

[Maxperson]

Funny you mention DnD movies. Saphina is a Red Wizard of Thay, very specifically.


I count spells with no Verbal components:
@ 0:32
@ 0:39
@ 0:50
@2:20
And the like six spells in a row she cast @3:30

@3:28 is iffy whether or not she was saying anything

And she was pretty quiet with the first spell the scene starts with, and the ones @ 2:07, @2:27, @3:48 was practically a whisper

And that is just the one fight scene. She does a few other obviously magical effects throughout the movie with no verbal components. In a DnD film, sanctioned by DnD. And no super loud chanting that can be heard over 20 yards away in the middle of a heavy melee of clashing steel.

Cool.

Red Wizards either have a special ability to allow that OR movies don't follow RAW. Which do you think it is, because it isn't PHB RAW what she did.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Cool.

Red Wizards either have a special ability to allow that OR movies don't follow RAW. Which do you think it is, because it isn't PHB RAW what she did.

Well, here is Sofina's statblock, so you can tell me is she has any special abilities. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/tg/thieves-gallery#Sofina

So, now we are at "Harry Potter doesn't count because it isn't a DnD movie" and "DnD movies don't count because they aren't RAW"

...

But people are disagreeing with you about what RAW MEANS, because, as literally demonstrated in the DnD movie... you can chant quietly. She does it four times in a single scene. So, how are you denying that you can quietly chant when you hear literal evidence for it in a DnD property?

 

[Maxperson]

Well, here is Sofina's statblock, so you can tell me is she has any special abilities. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/tg/thieves-gallery#Sofina

So, now we are at "Harry Potter doesn't count because it isn't a DnD movie" and "DnD movies don't count because they aren't RAW"

So they aren't following RAW, but we knew that since before the movie came out and the druid "cheated" and turned into an owlbear. And during the movie when she shapechanged multiple times a round into more shapes than she could possibly change into.

But people are disagreeing with you about what RAW MEANS, because, as literally demonstrated in the DnD movie... you can chant quietly. She does it four times in a single scene. So, how are you denying that you can quietly chant when you hear literal evidence for it in a DnD property?

Wait?! You actually think the D&D movie demonstrated RAW???

 

[Chaosmancer]

So they aren't following RAW, but we knew that since before the movie came out and the druid "cheated" and turned into an owlbear. And during the movie when she shapechanged multiple times a round into more shapes than she could possibly change into.

Wait?! You actually think the D&D movie demonstrated RAW???

Sounds kind of like this, doesn't it?

5TH LEVEL: WILD RESURGENCE
If you have no uses of Wild Shape left, you can give yourself one use by expending a spell slot (no action required). You can do so only once per turn.

In addition, you can expend one use of Wild Shape (no action required) to give yourself a 1stlevel spell slot, and you can’t do so again until you finish a Long Rest.



But actually, turns out Doric DOES have special abilities, per her statblock: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/tg/thieves-gallery#Doric

Change Shape, 5 times per day, allows her to turn into CR 3 or lower beasts, or an Owlbear. So... sounds kind of like RAW to me, since she has a special ability, and that was one of the options, wasn't it? Having a special ability OR not following RAW?

 

[Maxperson]

Sounds kind of like this, doesn't it?

5TH LEVEL: WILD RESURGENCE
If you have no uses of Wild Shape left, you can give yourself one use by expending a spell slot (no action required). You can do so only once per turn.

In addition, you can expend one use of Wild Shape (no action required) to give yourself a 1stlevel spell slot, and you can’t do so again until you finish a Long Rest.



But actually, turns out Doric DOES have special abilities, per her statblock: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/tg/thieves-gallery#Doric

Change Shape, 5 times per day, allows her to turn into CR 3 or lower beasts, or an Owlbear. So... sounds kind of like RAW to me, since she has a special ability, and that was one of the options, wasn't it? Having a special ability OR not following RAW?

Are you seriously arguing that a stat block created after the fact that has no rules(all rules are in the PHB) to back it up means that the movie was RAW? Really?

 

[Yaarel]

Are you seriously arguing that a stat block created after the fact that has no rules(all rules are in the PHB) to back it up means that the movie was RAW? Really?

The movie is "quasi official". Officially, Doric is an NPC, so wont necessarily follow PC rules. Even so, her statblock officially identifies her as a "Druid", and her stats are suggestive for where the PC Druid class is heading. Even so, NPCs are NPCs.

 

[Maxperson]

The movie is "quasi official". Officially, Doric is an NPC, so wont necessarily follow PC rules. Even so, her statblock officially identifies her as a "Druid", and her stats are suggestive for where the PC Druid class is heading. Even so, NPCs are NPCs.

The movie is entirely irrelevant to RAW. 100% of RAW is in the 2014 PHB. Nothing else put out is RAW. Nothing. The rest are optional rules and guidelines. The movie isn't even that much.

Now perhaps in 2024 turning into an owlbear and that special ability will be RAW, but into then it's 100% not.