D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[Kobold Avenger]

Since other classes are getting things like Divine Orders, Pacts and the like.

I think Monks should also get something like that. Monk could get something like a choice of Internal/Soft Martial Arts vs External/Hard Martial Arts.

Monks in D&D are traditionally assumed to be of the more Internal/Soft Martial Arts, but I think there's room to expand on Monks and have ones that do External/Hard Martial Arts. And the choice of Internal vs External could decide on something like whether to use Wisdom or Strength for Save DCs and AC bonus as well as uses of discipline abilities.

 

[Marandahir]

I really like where they're taking it, but unlike the other classes that have all had at least one go-around, the Monk needs another major draft.

That all said, I agree with those who have said that giving a reason for characters to use Short Rests solves the biggest issues. WotC had seemed to be trying to move everyone AWAY from short rest recharges and toward prof-bonus/long rest recharges, but now including elements like 1 recharge/short rest, full recharge on long rest makes Short Rests worthwhile again and helps stave off the dreaded 5MWD.

Finally, I like the move away from narrow orientalist language like Ki, but I don't see how the new subclass format lends itself to the other Monastic Traditions. Warrior of X is sick as hell for the 4 they're including, but Warrior of the Long Death? Warrior of the Sun Soul? Warrior of the Drunken Master? Warrior of the Kensei? Warrior of the Astral Self? Warrior of the Ascendant Dragon? Many of these are awkward and would need complete renaming to fit this format. And some of these are sick as hell as they are…

 

[Marandahir]

its not really opposite, it just depends on when you are playing a monk.

At low levels, my conclusions stands. There is no reason to use unarmed strikes, just use that good old quarterstaff like you always have or a d6 weapon with some weapon masteries.

At 5th you will either use d6 weapon with weapon mastery or unarmed strike at d8, just depends on what you want.

Then once you hit d10 your probably going with the fist all the time.

In early Dragon Ball, Goku relied on his Power Pole for a majority of his fighting, because while he IS strong, he's stronger when using his weapon, let along the reach it provides.

A few seasons later and some major power ups he's mainly using unarmed strikes. He uses the occasional energy blast by the power of his discipline, but he's more so punching and kicking and head-butting. He isn't even flying until the final season; he's just jumping really high.

By DBZ and beyond, he's mainly firing off energy blasts and Deflecting energy as well. And flying everywhere, if he's not teleporting around the battle field with instant transmission.

Sounds like the Playtest Monk is pretty reflective of that journey.

 

[Marandahir]

Since other classes are getting things like Divine Orders, Pacts and the like.

I think Monks should also get something like that. Monk could get something like a choice of Internal/Soft Martial Arts vs External/Hard Martial Arts.

Monks in D&D are traditionally assumed to be of the more Internal/Soft Martial Arts, but I think there's room to expand on Monks and have ones that do External/Hard Martial Arts. And the choice of Internal vs External could decide on something like whether to use Wisdom or Strength for Save DCs and AC bonus as well as uses of discipline abilities.

Tome of Battle Swordsage / Kensei type characters vs. unarmed Monk, I like that.

All Monks should be ABLE to use Unarmed strikes or weapons as needed relatively effectively, but a 1st or 2nd level choice would take you down a specialized path on whether you're a master of weapon-based martial arts or a master of kickboxing/grappling unarmed martial arts.

Maybe even tie it to Weapon Mastery. Yes, the Warrior of the Hand gets weapon mastery-esque features for their unarmed strikes. What if that was a base-class feature that was a choice versus gaining weapon mastery with weapons? Maybe even build it into the Martial Arts feature.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

It's exactly the same as a weapon mastery.

Unarmed strike got Flex.

Ah yes. The most boring and arguably weakest of all of the "masteries" that nearly every person discussing Weapon masteries has claimed is by far the worst of them since the system was publically announced. Such a great alternative. ...sarcasm aside, you seem or have misunderstood or failed to read the rest of my words on this point: the monk's unarmed damage should have been buffed to what they did in the playtest from the start. Having Monks start with a d6 and go up to a d12 for unarmed attacks isn't giving them something new, it's fixing a problem. Monks do not keep up with other martials, especially at higher levels. Now if you bump up the dice one more additional time? Then we might be able to conclude that they were "given" a mastery, but even then I'd be argue that I'd rather have the ability to choose which mastery to apply to my unarmed. I'd gladly take Topple, push, vex, slow, or literally any other mastery option over flex. Heck Flex needs to be redesigned for a number of reasons, but that is a whole other conversation.

I disagree with the idea that Unarmed Strikes need a Weapon Mastery. I think what Unarmed Strikes do need is to be able to pull off the push, trip, etc. tactical moves that a lot of other classes are getting, but based on Wis or Dex instead of Str. So not a tacked on weapon mastery, but a distinct class feature. Definitely feels more "martial artsy" that way.

Then add in a way to spend di points to possibly enhance these maneuvers, either as a core ability, or for the subclasses.

Finally, have the unarmed attack die size apply to monk weapons, so it's a meaningful choice to use either your fists with the options mentioned above, or a weapon and take advantage of its particular weapon mastery feature.

Precisely.

I don't disagree, but the Push and Topple masteries seem to scream martial arts to me.

Precisely.

The monk as written here just screams "hey martials, look at all these new cool toys you get! Same with you paladin, ranger, and even War cleric. No, not you monk. You don't get them, not at least if you want to use your core features. Use weapons instead. What? What do you mean you're the only martial without martial weapon proficiency? A d10 hit die? Why are you so greedy? Ya might as well be asking for the moon!"

Also, for those people looking at using short swords with their monk, check again under the monk weapon proficiencies and weapons chart. It may or may not be a typo but monks have lost proficiency with short swords.

 

[Sir Brennen]

The monk as written here just screams "hey martials, look at all these new cool toys you get! Same with you paladin, ranger, and even War cleric. No, not you monk. You don't get them, not at least if you want to use your core features. Use weapons instead. What? What do you mean you're the only martial without martial weapon proficiency? A d10 hit die? Why are you so greedy? Ya might as well be asking for the moon!"

Moon druid bear looks away, trying not to catch anyone's eye.

Also, for those people looking at using short swords with their monk, check again under the monk weapon proficiencies and weapons chart. It may or may not be a typo but monks have lost proficiency with short swords.

I'm okay with this if the available monk weapons follow the Unarmed strike damage. Weapons can easily be re-flavored that way, so your "dagger" could be a sai or "long knife" or "short sword" (though this might be a touch more difficult now if someone is a stickler for the Weapon Masteries of a given weapon.)

Opening up the martial weapons for real is probably going to be a sub-class, such as an updated version of the Kensei at some point.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

You know, I'd completely missed that at some point they changed the grab/shove rules to be just saves now. Which is cleaner than skill checks, but feels less active and you cannot benefit from stuff like Inspiration because you're not the one rolling, and their DC totals are really low (as the opponent gets to pick their better save), so you should really just be using a weapon that has the same effect on every hit...

Which is fine for other warriors, but for Monks means only greatclub (for pushing) and just no way to Topple.

 

[Chaosmancer]

They can BEAT the damage curve.
They can BEAT the defense curve.
*while ki lasts.

The damage curve OR the defense curve, while Ki lasts. Meaning they are behind the curve for one of them while ki lasts, and then behind both of them when it runs out.

That isn't good.

And their niche is that they can run past the entire front line and stun the wizard in the back. They have a much stronger identity than most other classes (i.e. Rangers).

You mean that stun they get to attempt only once per day? In a tactic that forces them out of position and easily swarmed by the enemy? That's their entire identity?

Yikes. Poor Monk.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Over two rounds, the lvl 17 Hand monk can do 8d12+40 damage at a cost of 2 di total with regular attacks plus flurry of blows, or (4d12+20) + (10d12+17/save for half) at a cost of 5 di total by using quivering palm. But at this point di is basically free, so I hardly factor that in. So quivering palm is definitely good; it's just way less good than it was. And I agree that the current iteration is extremely powerful but...man, it takes 17 levels to finally get a genuinely scary ability, so for most monks it's just not relevant.

I dunno...it just seems weird that we all expected monks to get a big boost but the nerfs seem as prominent as the buffs.

Also...looking at those high levels attacks makes me think: doesn't the lack of mastery on unarmed strikes amount to a nerf that grows as the monk levels up, and compound with the stealth nerf from the fact that so few magic items benefit monk attacks? By the time they get to d12 unarmed strikes the monk will want to use them for most or all attacks, but that would mean no free mastery benefits at all.

I think high level monks are significantly weaker now, in comparison to other martials. But they can move around great. As can a lot of other classes at high levels.

To me, compared to other 2024 classes, monks have gone from "meh" to "meh."

The save for half is the troubling part to me as it makes the ability more lateral than upgrade from a damage perspective (though I realize there is no guarantee that the monk would hit all 4 of the sacrificed attacks).

It seems like its more of a damage rider you use to stack on high AC enemies you don't want to be next to. I don't think that's bad per se.

But at level 17, it's hard for me to feel good about receiving a more expensive option to potentially do comparable damage as the same attack pattern I've had since level 2 but with fewer control effects.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Considering you are giving up an opportunity to make 4 attacks for it at 4d12 + 20 (and lost opportunity to apply any flurry of blows riders or stunning strikes) I think it's closer than you're giving it credit for.

Maybe 3 ki points isn't the right number. But the effect is reasonable for the level get it at.

Are you saying the new version is reasonable, or the old? Because I will agree the new ability is reasonable.

Because 4d12+20 is about 46 damage, so, would you give up 46 damage to deal 460 damage? Because that is what "drop to zero" means. Instant death was too powerful. It just was.