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Playtest: The Druid (merged)
- Thread starter Fallen Seraph
- Start date
Shroomy
Adventurer
Wow, is it just me or is this guy the rogue's best friend? An at will that grants combat advantage? Not to mention they can fling baddies around left and right for optimal positioning.
A rogue and a druid in the same party looks to be just gruesome. And really, it just makes sense that 'dirty alley sneak' and 'savage wilderness priest' should make the perfet team.Err... What the hell, it works.
Oh, and what the heck is an aftereffect? New keyword there?
The at-will call of the beast denies the target the ability to gain combat advantage, it doesn't grant it. Aftereffects are described in the MM; they happen if you hit the target and after the initial effect ends.
Fallen Seraph
First Post
It is funny cause in most of my settings where there are Druids it actually does. Since their generally underground urban groups trying to have nature overwhelm the city, so they deal with criminal groups a tonA rogue and a druid in the same party looks to be just gruesome. And really, it just makes sense that 'dirty alley sneak' and 'savage wilderness priest' should make the perfet team.
Oh, and what the heck is an aftereffect? New keyword there?
As for aftereffect, monsters have it. In the MM it is stated as being:
So looks like perhaps PHB2 will have some character abilities that only monsters had before.
Edit: Martial Power and Dragon has some Powers that had aftereffect as well.
Last edited:
Shroomy
Adventurer
Its interesting that using the currently available races, humans make a particularly strong druid thanks to the extra at-will. I wonder if any of the Primal-focused races in the PHB2(I'm guessing Shifter, Goliath, and Half-Orc) will have a racial ability granting them access to more Primal abilities?
Ktulu
First Post
Some line by line critique, and then some thoughts at the end to sum up.
If it weren't for this, you'd basically start by casting spells, then shift to beast form for some melee cleanup. But thanks to this one line here, you can switch to beast form, charge into melee, do some damage, shift back and shift back a space to throw down a control spell, then shift to beast form again next round and reenter the fray. This one little line permits the class to function as a sort of dance between beast and human form, instead of just one or the other.
Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution. The wisdom and dex were inevitable, because of elves. Odd, in a way. It basically pushes beast form powers towards agile beasts like cougars and away from tough beasts like bears or boars.
Ok, there are a LOT of at wills here, seriously. But you get three of them. That's... definitely a good move. Because as we're going to see, some of these are highly situational.
Call the Beast: Hmm. Its a neat effect, but as an at will? Also, "when it doesn't" should be "if it doesn't."
Chill Wind: Doesn't add your wisdom modifier to damage? I guess it kind of can't, because if it did it would be miles above Scorching Burst, but it kind of bites to have a power that remains that static in terms of damage. Makes it only really useful for the slide, not for the damage dealt. I'd at least have made it Wisdom modifier damage without the die roll- the average at level 1 is nearly identical, and it can grow a little over time.
Flame Seed: The spaces adjacent, but not the space itself? It creates a little wall around the target. Are you considered adjacent to yourself? More important, is your space considered a space adjacent to you? The dictionary says no.
Grasping Claws: Hey, I just now noticed that natural weapons don't need proficiency bonuses. You can just make them target defenses, and let the attacker use an implement that isn't held in the hand. Neat!
Pounce: This is good.
Savage Rend: Aww, they totally stole this one from my homebrew that I never published! Stupid WOTC psychic thieves! Seriously though, this power is written on a yellow legal pad two feet to my fight as a part of my homebrew shapeshifting class. Even the theme is the same- swat someone with claws, slide them a space.
Storm Spike: The damage is acceptable for an at will single target ranged attack even without the extra effect if they don't move, so this one's fine. Makes nice combinations with an ally's Immobilization attacks, but the damage isn't high enough to go too crazy with it. BUT IT NEEDS ERRATA! The theme is totally screwed up if someone else slides the target while its not the target's turn. It should be "If the target doesn't move at least 2 squares BEFORE THE END OF its next turn, it takes lightning damage equal to your Wisdom modifier."
Thorn Whip: This one's cool. Nice for use by a character with good melee powers, but without the durability to charge into the center of battle. Pull your foe out a little, then take them on.
Cull the Herd: Eh... not sure what I think of beast form attacks that don't actually use the beast form much. I mean, its a spell, its magic, why can't you use it when you're in human form? It won't bother me long, but the theme is not strong with this one.
Darting Bite: Your run of the mill maneuverability based encounter power.
Frost Flash: Without the bonus damage, this is really weak. With it, its ok.
Twisting Vines: Very thematic. Again with the "each space adjacent" thing. This one makes me wonder- is this an oversight? Because it creates REALLY weird patterns on the ground if you capture two or more targets within your burst 1.
Faerie Fire: Thematic and powerful. I like it.
Fires of Life: Neat, but I suspect it will be difficult to use.
Savage Frenzy: Classic melee stuff.
Wind Prison: Really odd. Makes the DM make some weird decisions, because the target is presumed to know the effects of powers used against him. So the DM has to ask- the monster knows he's granting combat advantage, but also that if he moves, his allies will be harmed, unless he moves immediately before them in the initiative order and they can safely stand back up, and in any case this monster is an orc who probably doesn't like his allies much anyways, and... etc.
Barkskin: Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Oh well. The old barkskin doesn't fit 4e anyways.
Fleet Pursuit: Fine, but should probably be rephrased. The clauses could fit better with some commas and a reordering.
Obscuring Mist: The wording on the Sustain could be better. I'm not sure how much use this will get.
Skittering Sneak: The sort of thing a lot of people expected. But... it helps Stealth, and not Bluff. So once you're noticed, everyone knows you're a Druid in disguise?
General Thoughts
Overall I like it. It seems to strike the right balance to me of wild shape and magic. But because "I love it! I really do!" isn't that interesting, I'm going to put down some criticisms.
The beast form powers aren't all that thematic. This was inevitable, I think, for reasons I'll describe in more detail in my discussion of my fantasy heartbreaker version of wild shape. But in short, making your beast form a nebulous animal-like shape basically prevents you from crafting powers that make explicit, thematic use of your beast form's characteristics. For example, its tough to make a power themed after goring a foe with tusks if the beast form doesn't have mechanically relevant attributes.
I'm really skeptical of efforts to create melee controller powers. This seems to bear out my skepticism. Sure, you can create melee powers that Slow, Daze, or Immobilize, but that really just keeps the target in one place: right next to you. Where they then attack you. Which is called being a Defender. So they can claim that this class is a Controller that can also be a little bit of a Striker or a Leader, but when I see a class that makes enemies hold still and fight man to man, I know I'm seeing a Defender. Guess we'll have to wait a little and find out exactly how much of that there is in the Druid. The human form stuff is certainly control.
The wild shape is aesthetically unsatisfying to me. I knew this would happen, so I can't complain much, and every previous edition of wild shape has been similarly unsatisfying to me, but there you go. The things I want in wild shape are: 1. I want to KNOW what it is I'm wild shaping into. This nebulous beast form doesn't do it for me. 2. I want the thing I'm wild shaping into to have an effect on the game. This beast form really doesn't- it just opens access to a suite of powers. That would work if that suite of powers were heavily themed based on the nature of my beast form, but they aren't. 3. I don't want to have a million different things I wild shape into. I want one, maybe two, and I want to specialize in them. An example of what I'm looking for would be something like, "You can wild shape into a bear. In bear form, you have the following bear themed powers. As you level up, you will get additional bear themed powers, as you master your form." It doesn't seem that I'm getting this. The wild shape powers previewed so far don't go into this much.
I'm not bitter about this, because I suspect that what I want runs counter to what the vast majority of D&D players want. And honestly, this comes a lot closer than what I expected (this gives you one beast form, you can theme it as you please, and the powers are generic, so while you're not aided in playing like I want, you're not hindered either).
This is absolute genius. This is going to be the hidden MVP of the entire Druid class.Wild Shape said:
If it weren't for this, you'd basically start by casting spells, then shift to beast form for some melee cleanup. But thanks to this one line here, you can switch to beast form, charge into melee, do some damage, shift back and shift back a space to throw down a control spell, then shift to beast form again next round and reenter the fray. This one little line permits the class to function as a sort of dance between beast and human form, instead of just one or the other.
Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution. The wisdom and dex were inevitable, because of elves. Odd, in a way. It basically pushes beast form powers towards agile beasts like cougars and away from tough beasts like bears or boars.
Ok, there are a LOT of at wills here, seriously. But you get three of them. That's... definitely a good move. Because as we're going to see, some of these are highly situational.
Call the Beast: Hmm. Its a neat effect, but as an at will? Also, "when it doesn't" should be "if it doesn't."
Chill Wind: Doesn't add your wisdom modifier to damage? I guess it kind of can't, because if it did it would be miles above Scorching Burst, but it kind of bites to have a power that remains that static in terms of damage. Makes it only really useful for the slide, not for the damage dealt. I'd at least have made it Wisdom modifier damage without the die roll- the average at level 1 is nearly identical, and it can grow a little over time.
Flame Seed: The spaces adjacent, but not the space itself? It creates a little wall around the target. Are you considered adjacent to yourself? More important, is your space considered a space adjacent to you? The dictionary says no.
Grasping Claws: Hey, I just now noticed that natural weapons don't need proficiency bonuses. You can just make them target defenses, and let the attacker use an implement that isn't held in the hand. Neat!
Pounce: This is good.
Savage Rend: Aww, they totally stole this one from my homebrew that I never published! Stupid WOTC psychic thieves! Seriously though, this power is written on a yellow legal pad two feet to my fight as a part of my homebrew shapeshifting class. Even the theme is the same- swat someone with claws, slide them a space.
Storm Spike: The damage is acceptable for an at will single target ranged attack even without the extra effect if they don't move, so this one's fine. Makes nice combinations with an ally's Immobilization attacks, but the damage isn't high enough to go too crazy with it. BUT IT NEEDS ERRATA! The theme is totally screwed up if someone else slides the target while its not the target's turn. It should be "If the target doesn't move at least 2 squares BEFORE THE END OF its next turn, it takes lightning damage equal to your Wisdom modifier."
Thorn Whip: This one's cool. Nice for use by a character with good melee powers, but without the durability to charge into the center of battle. Pull your foe out a little, then take them on.
Cull the Herd: Eh... not sure what I think of beast form attacks that don't actually use the beast form much. I mean, its a spell, its magic, why can't you use it when you're in human form? It won't bother me long, but the theme is not strong with this one.
Darting Bite: Your run of the mill maneuverability based encounter power.
Frost Flash: Without the bonus damage, this is really weak. With it, its ok.
Twisting Vines: Very thematic. Again with the "each space adjacent" thing. This one makes me wonder- is this an oversight? Because it creates REALLY weird patterns on the ground if you capture two or more targets within your burst 1.
Faerie Fire: Thematic and powerful. I like it.
Fires of Life: Neat, but I suspect it will be difficult to use.
Savage Frenzy: Classic melee stuff.
Wind Prison: Really odd. Makes the DM make some weird decisions, because the target is presumed to know the effects of powers used against him. So the DM has to ask- the monster knows he's granting combat advantage, but also that if he moves, his allies will be harmed, unless he moves immediately before them in the initiative order and they can safely stand back up, and in any case this monster is an orc who probably doesn't like his allies much anyways, and... etc.
Barkskin: Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Oh well. The old barkskin doesn't fit 4e anyways.
Fleet Pursuit: Fine, but should probably be rephrased. The clauses could fit better with some commas and a reordering.
Obscuring Mist: The wording on the Sustain could be better. I'm not sure how much use this will get.
Skittering Sneak: The sort of thing a lot of people expected. But... it helps Stealth, and not Bluff. So once you're noticed, everyone knows you're a Druid in disguise?
General Thoughts
Overall I like it. It seems to strike the right balance to me of wild shape and magic. But because "I love it! I really do!" isn't that interesting, I'm going to put down some criticisms.
The beast form powers aren't all that thematic. This was inevitable, I think, for reasons I'll describe in more detail in my discussion of my fantasy heartbreaker version of wild shape. But in short, making your beast form a nebulous animal-like shape basically prevents you from crafting powers that make explicit, thematic use of your beast form's characteristics. For example, its tough to make a power themed after goring a foe with tusks if the beast form doesn't have mechanically relevant attributes.
I'm really skeptical of efforts to create melee controller powers. This seems to bear out my skepticism. Sure, you can create melee powers that Slow, Daze, or Immobilize, but that really just keeps the target in one place: right next to you. Where they then attack you. Which is called being a Defender. So they can claim that this class is a Controller that can also be a little bit of a Striker or a Leader, but when I see a class that makes enemies hold still and fight man to man, I know I'm seeing a Defender. Guess we'll have to wait a little and find out exactly how much of that there is in the Druid. The human form stuff is certainly control.
The wild shape is aesthetically unsatisfying to me. I knew this would happen, so I can't complain much, and every previous edition of wild shape has been similarly unsatisfying to me, but there you go. The things I want in wild shape are: 1. I want to KNOW what it is I'm wild shaping into. This nebulous beast form doesn't do it for me. 2. I want the thing I'm wild shaping into to have an effect on the game. This beast form really doesn't- it just opens access to a suite of powers. That would work if that suite of powers were heavily themed based on the nature of my beast form, but they aren't. 3. I don't want to have a million different things I wild shape into. I want one, maybe two, and I want to specialize in them. An example of what I'm looking for would be something like, "You can wild shape into a bear. In bear form, you have the following bear themed powers. As you level up, you will get additional bear themed powers, as you master your form." It doesn't seem that I'm getting this. The wild shape powers previewed so far don't go into this much.
I'm not bitter about this, because I suspect that what I want runs counter to what the vast majority of D&D players want. And honestly, this comes a lot closer than what I expected (this gives you one beast form, you can theme it as you please, and the powers are generic, so while you're not aided in playing like I want, you're not hindered either).
They must have decided not to spoil the entire book beforehand.
