In fact pemerton's suggestion is less ambiguous, because it's clearer when the assessment is made. If you roll a 1 on the d6 in the original wording, does "cannot breathe fire again for 1 round" include this round or not? Does a roll of 1 mean breathe / not breathe / breathe or breathe, then breathe again?
D&D 5E Playtest This: Red Dragon
In fact pemerton's suggestion is less ambiguous, because it's clearer when the assessment is made. If you roll a 1 on the d6 in the original wording, does "cannot breathe fire again for 1 round" include this round or not? Does a roll of 1 mean breathe / not breathe / breathe or breathe, then breathe again?
MortalPlague
Adventurer
So I ran a fight with this beastie today. And my party absolutely demolished it.
I used a new version (Version 2.0, as is currently at the first page of the thread), incorporating some of the ideas from RangerWickett's design and some of the suggestions in the thread.
The party:
Bardryn - Female Hill Dwarf Protective Fighter, Bounty Hunter / Healer
Kithri - Female Halfling Warlock, Spy / Lurker
Tavros - Male Human Sorcerer, Bounty Hunter / Magic User
Allesia - Female Wood Elf Thief Rogue, Noble / Archer
Brother Maynard - Male NPC Human Sun Cleric, Sage / Healer
I had a couple of minor encounters leading up to the big encounter. A battle with some orcs, and a medusa (which they talked / charmed their way past). So they arrived at the dragon's lair with minor resource expenditure.
I didn't put together any really fancy terrain. I had a cavern, with two side caverns, and a side way in (which the PCs approached from). They buffed a little bit (fire resistance for the warlock, Prayer from the NPC Cleric), then made their move.
The dragon won the initiative, and spent his turn spitting fire at the foes. He managed to hit Allesia for 13 damage - off to a good start! He was still in his hoard. The order had Allesia act next; she fired off a shot and hit. She had advantage on the attack, so she dealt sneak attack for 33 damage. But since the dragon's armor made it 23, the party knew they were in for a challenge.
Brother Maynard acted, and he used his action to heal Allesia for 12. Since he was an NPC, I didn't play him to his fullest potential. I used him mainly to heal, and for the Prayer buff. Oh, and radiant lance.
Kithri was next, and she stepped into the cavern and struck with an eldritch blast. BAM, 23 on the attack. The dragon sprouted a weak spot. She dealt an even 23 damage, doubling up what he was at.
At this point, with the dragon already at 46 damage, I decided to use the higher hit point total of 244. I was initially going to have just the 120, but the PCs were mowing through his hit points like candy. Also, I decided it was an appropriate time to spend one of his expertise dice for an out-of-turn attack. He spat fire at Kithri in fury, but missed her.
Bardryn acted next, and she ran towards the dragon and threw an axe, hitting for 6 damage. The dragon spent his other die to spit fire at her too, but missed.
Finally, Tavros rounded out the initiative, and he rolled a critical hit with Melf's Acid Arrow. Ouch. 32 acid damage, and at the end of the dragon's next turn, he'd take 16 more. That put him up to 84 damage. If I hadn't decided early to use the higher hit points, the dragon would be nearly dead on the first round of combat.
The second round began with the dragon rolling in his hoard to restore his armor. Losing his mobility to do it was a more serious blow than I expected, since he couldn't close in melee to attack anyone. He opted instead to breathe fire, but he could only get Bardryn in the blast. He blasted her for 19 damage, but she saved for half. The zone would keep the others from leaving the tunnel unscathed, however, and Bardryn would automatically cook at the start of her turn.
Allesia and Maynard dealt no damage on their turns, but Kithri once again opened up with a 23 attack roll, triggering the weak spot again. Bardryn closed with the dragon, and began to dish out some damage, while Tavros hit him with another acid arrow. The dragon rolled in his treasure to fix the weak spot, still exposed to all the ranged attacks and fighting only the fighter in melee. He took a couple bites at her but missed. Finally, he spent some dice to snatch her up in his jaws, dealing a significant amount of damage.
This turn, the PCs rolled a round of misses. Bardryn managed to out-strength the dragon, and wrench free of his jaws. But the dragon then unloaded a breath of flame across the battlefield, and managed to drop Allesia (who failed her dex save somehow). More accurately, the on-fire damage and the zone's damage (which combine for a vicious 10 fire damage) did her in at the start of her turn. However, the cleric acted right after her, so he got her up with a 20 hp heal.
The dragon was pelted by the others. At the end of the round, he was sitting at about 195 damage taken. He kept his dice, however. On his turn, he used his bite, and I gave him the grab for free. He then used both dice to eat the cleric. The combination of the breath weapon, then the two bites had the cleric pretty hurt, but he could still use another Cure Serious Wounds on himself, which he did.
For a full round, the party's attacks chipped away at his hit points, never quite opening up another weak spot. The DR 10 carried him a long way. But he couldn't fulfill the dragon's promise of death, missing with a series of three bite attacks at the sorcerer. The party managed to score another 23 or higher hit, opening up the floodgates, and with another round of fire, they downed the dragon handily.
Epilogue
Overall, the dragon performed much like a latter-day solo in 4th Edition. He was making tons of attacks, and laying down some control, but in the end, he simply didn't hit often enough to threaten the PCs. I think this is consistent with the current playtest's style, but to run it again, I'd probably give the dragon an added +2 on all attacks.
The breath weapon seemed pretty good. It dealt a lot of damage, and carved up the battlefield as intended. Also, the expertise dice worked well to give him some out of turn attacks. I'd love to have a mechanic that lets him gain additional dice when he takes a large sum of damage; I think it could give the fight some momentum.
The dragon's weak spot seemed to crop up too often, though I think it was just dice luck. The warlock needed to roll a 16 or better to trigger it, and for her to roll it two rounds in a row is a rare occurrence. When the weak spot is open, perhaps the dragon should be allowed to roll expertise dice to parry? Without the DR, the dragon goes down fast.
I found I never tried to use claw. Bite was always a better choice, and it costs the same number of dice to use. Claw ought to give two claw attacks, and bite should perhaps have the grab re-attached.
I used a new version (Version 2.0, as is currently at the first page of the thread), incorporating some of the ideas from RangerWickett's design and some of the suggestions in the thread.
The party:
Bardryn - Female Hill Dwarf Protective Fighter, Bounty Hunter / Healer
Kithri - Female Halfling Warlock, Spy / Lurker
Tavros - Male Human Sorcerer, Bounty Hunter / Magic User
Allesia - Female Wood Elf Thief Rogue, Noble / Archer
Brother Maynard - Male NPC Human Sun Cleric, Sage / Healer
I had a couple of minor encounters leading up to the big encounter. A battle with some orcs, and a medusa (which they talked / charmed their way past). So they arrived at the dragon's lair with minor resource expenditure.
I didn't put together any really fancy terrain. I had a cavern, with two side caverns, and a side way in (which the PCs approached from). They buffed a little bit (fire resistance for the warlock, Prayer from the NPC Cleric), then made their move.
The dragon won the initiative, and spent his turn spitting fire at the foes. He managed to hit Allesia for 13 damage - off to a good start! He was still in his hoard. The order had Allesia act next; she fired off a shot and hit. She had advantage on the attack, so she dealt sneak attack for 33 damage. But since the dragon's armor made it 23, the party knew they were in for a challenge.
Brother Maynard acted, and he used his action to heal Allesia for 12. Since he was an NPC, I didn't play him to his fullest potential. I used him mainly to heal, and for the Prayer buff. Oh, and radiant lance.
Kithri was next, and she stepped into the cavern and struck with an eldritch blast. BAM, 23 on the attack. The dragon sprouted a weak spot. She dealt an even 23 damage, doubling up what he was at.
At this point, with the dragon already at 46 damage, I decided to use the higher hit point total of 244. I was initially going to have just the 120, but the PCs were mowing through his hit points like candy. Also, I decided it was an appropriate time to spend one of his expertise dice for an out-of-turn attack. He spat fire at Kithri in fury, but missed her.
Bardryn acted next, and she ran towards the dragon and threw an axe, hitting for 6 damage. The dragon spent his other die to spit fire at her too, but missed.
Finally, Tavros rounded out the initiative, and he rolled a critical hit with Melf's Acid Arrow. Ouch. 32 acid damage, and at the end of the dragon's next turn, he'd take 16 more. That put him up to 84 damage. If I hadn't decided early to use the higher hit points, the dragon would be nearly dead on the first round of combat.
The second round began with the dragon rolling in his hoard to restore his armor. Losing his mobility to do it was a more serious blow than I expected, since he couldn't close in melee to attack anyone. He opted instead to breathe fire, but he could only get Bardryn in the blast. He blasted her for 19 damage, but she saved for half. The zone would keep the others from leaving the tunnel unscathed, however, and Bardryn would automatically cook at the start of her turn.
Allesia and Maynard dealt no damage on their turns, but Kithri once again opened up with a 23 attack roll, triggering the weak spot again. Bardryn closed with the dragon, and began to dish out some damage, while Tavros hit him with another acid arrow. The dragon rolled in his treasure to fix the weak spot, still exposed to all the ranged attacks and fighting only the fighter in melee. He took a couple bites at her but missed. Finally, he spent some dice to snatch her up in his jaws, dealing a significant amount of damage.
This turn, the PCs rolled a round of misses. Bardryn managed to out-strength the dragon, and wrench free of his jaws. But the dragon then unloaded a breath of flame across the battlefield, and managed to drop Allesia (who failed her dex save somehow). More accurately, the on-fire damage and the zone's damage (which combine for a vicious 10 fire damage) did her in at the start of her turn. However, the cleric acted right after her, so he got her up with a 20 hp heal.
The dragon was pelted by the others. At the end of the round, he was sitting at about 195 damage taken. He kept his dice, however. On his turn, he used his bite, and I gave him the grab for free. He then used both dice to eat the cleric. The combination of the breath weapon, then the two bites had the cleric pretty hurt, but he could still use another Cure Serious Wounds on himself, which he did.
For a full round, the party's attacks chipped away at his hit points, never quite opening up another weak spot. The DR 10 carried him a long way. But he couldn't fulfill the dragon's promise of death, missing with a series of three bite attacks at the sorcerer. The party managed to score another 23 or higher hit, opening up the floodgates, and with another round of fire, they downed the dragon handily.
Epilogue
Overall, the dragon performed much like a latter-day solo in 4th Edition. He was making tons of attacks, and laying down some control, but in the end, he simply didn't hit often enough to threaten the PCs. I think this is consistent with the current playtest's style, but to run it again, I'd probably give the dragon an added +2 on all attacks.
The breath weapon seemed pretty good. It dealt a lot of damage, and carved up the battlefield as intended. Also, the expertise dice worked well to give him some out of turn attacks. I'd love to have a mechanic that lets him gain additional dice when he takes a large sum of damage; I think it could give the fight some momentum.
The dragon's weak spot seemed to crop up too often, though I think it was just dice luck. The warlock needed to roll a 16 or better to trigger it, and for her to roll it two rounds in a row is a rare occurrence. When the weak spot is open, perhaps the dragon should be allowed to roll expertise dice to parry? Without the DR, the dragon goes down fast.
I found I never tried to use claw. Bite was always a better choice, and it costs the same number of dice to use. Claw ought to give two claw attacks, and bite should perhaps have the grab re-attached.
Drago Rinato
Explorer
I don't understand... why melee attack have only +5 to hit, instead of +6 for his Strenght?
Blackwarder
Adventurer
I don't understand why his strength is only 22 shouldn't it be higher?
I think that the armor chink should only be triggered on a crit and that the dragon should have more smaller expertise dices or even dices of varying sizes with special attacks or moves being triggered by different sized dices.
One last thing? Where is the dragon fear on this beast?
Warder
I think that the armor chink should only be triggered on a crit and that the dragon should have more smaller expertise dices or even dices of varying sizes with special attacks or moves being triggered by different sized dices.
One last thing? Where is the dragon fear on this beast?
Warder
RangerWickett
Legend
What level was your group, MP?
Warbringer
Explorer
Awesome dragon, some really nice rules.
Personally, the damage output from the dragon in relation to the pcs simply isn't enough, even with combat superiority, just to keep them honest.
Damage feels like it should be at least double, maybe size modifiers need to address this, extra damage die per attack for size...
Large + 1d6
Huge + 2d8
Colossal + 3d10
Gargantuan +4d12
Breath weapon needs to feel more like a fireball ... 1d6 per level of dragon?
Personally, the damage output from the dragon in relation to the pcs simply isn't enough, even with combat superiority, just to keep them honest.
Damage feels like it should be at least double, maybe size modifiers need to address this, extra damage die per attack for size...
Large + 1d6
Huge + 2d8
Colossal + 3d10
Gargantuan +4d12
Breath weapon needs to feel more like a fireball ... 1d6 per level of dragon?
MortalPlague
Adventurer
I was a little concerned about making the dragon too powerful, going by the latest playtest rules. I decided I wanted his attack to be +5, but I didn't want PCs to be able to match him for strength, so I bumped the STR up and lowered his attack bonus.
In future iterations, I'm going to bring his bonus to hit up by a few points.
The philosophy for 5th Edition seems to favor a smaller scale of stats. Strength has a hard cap at 25 for giants, and since this dragon was far from a great wyrm, I decided to peg it around 22. I think on a scale that only goes to 25, it's an appropriate value for a dragon of this age.
Multiple different sizes of dice sounds like it would get complicated to run very quickly. I was considering a mechanic that allowed him to generate dice based on what was happening in the battle, though, which would give him more options.
I might just add that in for the next build. As it was, I wanted to see how the dragon fought purely in a combat sense. If the whole party became stunned while he snacked on the cleric, that would end up being a poor test of combat. Still, it is an iconic power, so I'll see about putting it in for next time.
They were all level 5 PCs.
After the fight, I agree with you. Although I may just see how it plays with the increased accuracy. My dragon wasn't hitting often enough to be dangerous, so if that changes, it might be enough damage to threaten.
Steely_Dan
First Post
MortalPlague
Adventurer
You could be right. I'm just going by memory.
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