Playtesting Coup De Grace

[KesselZero]

Disagree. I'm tired of needing multiple rounds to slit the throat of an unconscious foe. D&DN is the first edition where I've liked the coup de grace rules.

Instead, I think Wizards should just keep in mind that the "paralyzed" and "unconscious" conditions are more or less equivalent to "dead," and should not be thrown around like minor debuffs.

I would XP you if I could. Totally agree. It also gives the monsters an interesting decision to make-- attack again, or spend an action waking up Grog so that little man with the furry feet doesn't cut his throat?

 

[Tovec]

CdG in 5e is kinda funny in a way. So many monsters have such low hps that 'merely' being reduced to zero could easily equate to less damage than a regular attack. Particularly if Sleep (with its 10-hp threshold) is indicative of powers that render targets helpless. Of course if there are no-threshold save-or-helpless spells to come, CdG will make them de-facto SoD.

It might be quite deadly to PCs, though, and would obviously be of great use to assassins sneaking up on naturally-helpless sleeping enemies and the like.

That just made me realize that a slayer trying to CdG a 2 HP opponent would do 2 on a hit, 3 on a miss. That is funny.

 

[Dausuul]

I am hot and cold on the rules for coupe de grace. I don't like that it should take two attacks to kill a paralyzed kobold and I also do not like that a sleeping dragon should go in 2 hits.

Dragons and other giant solitary monsters are a special case: Creatures that should not be easily slain, but that may not have layers of guards and defenses to protect them while they sleep. I'd rather have special rules for those few monsters than try to build the whole coup de grace system around them. Something like this:

Sleep With One Eye Open: Dragons are notoriously hard to catch off guard. A sleeping dragon suffers no penalty on Perception checks, and gets a free Perception check to wake up if anyone tries a coup de grace against it.

(Also, I would like a special optional rule that anyone who attempts a "coup de grah" instead of a "coup de grasse" deals no damage, but has his or her weapon transformed into a tub of lard.)

 

[Texicles]

Two rogues faced tough odds to do something dangerous they'll talk about for days? I like that.

This.

I'm tired of needing multiple rounds to slit the throat of an unconscious foe....

[But,] "paralyzed" and "unconscious"...should not be thrown around like minor debuffs.

This.

Dragons and other giant solitary monsters are a special case

And this.

CdG is a powerful tool that should be handled with care. The RAW are good IMO, but it's the sort of thing that the DM needs to consider when designing encounters. A little bit of "lucky rogue" is good for morale and storytelling, but giving a dragon the ol' one-two before he wakes up is bad mmmkay? I think that rather than try to codify the special circumstances, DMs should be made aware of the risk/reward of CdG.

I think this all really falls to DM discretion and encounter design.

 

[Trance-Zg]

the 3.5 rules were good on CdG, automatic critical hit and fortitude saving throw of DC 10+damage dealt vs. death.

hold person + mercurial greatsword ftw

 

[MarkB]

Yes, I agree. Plus don't forget that sleeping is the unconscious condition. In one of our playtest games, the ogre was asleep (unconscious) in his den. IIRC, he had a lot of HP. With a crappy WIS roll on his part to awaken and two excellent sneak rolls on the part of two halfling rogues, they were able to sneak up on the sleeping ogre undetected. One went for the CdG which brought it down to zero. Then subsequently the other rogue goes for the CdG which by my understanding of the rules in the condition entry, kills the ogre. They eliminated a dangerous foe without a combat. I keep thinking I did something wrong by allowing this but everything I checked in the rules seem to indicate that I handled this as written. A side effect of this is it enforces the fact that you should either sleep somewhere safe or post a watch.

As I understand it from the playtest rules, it should only have taken the one CdG, unless the DM considered the ogre a 'special' opponent.

The Coup de Grace rules do say that a CdG against a creature brings it down to zero HP and a CdG against a creature at or below zero kills it - but the Damage and Dying rules say that the Dying rules generally aren't applied to monsters, with the exceptions of mighty villains and exceptional NPCs, and that other monsters simply die when they hit zero HP.

So the second part of the CdG rule really only applies when it's used against players, major NPCs and BBEGs - against ordinary monsters, even big ones, a single CdG does the trick.