Please Critique - Fighter/Barbarian Build

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Background:
After some internal deliberation I decided to go with a human Barbarian (wild rager), wielding a 2h falchion, who conforms to become a fighter after level 2. So we are starting out at barb 2/ ftr 2. I know that the Wild Rager isn't the best choice for a 2 level dip, but I'm doing it for strictly role-playing reasons to give my character a background story and some added flavor. I'm just looking for some people to critique my current build.

Party Makeup:
Level 4 Monk
Level 4 Oracle of Flames
Level 4 Witch
Level 2/2 Alch/Magus (just first 2 levels of Alch)
Level 2/2 Barb/Fighter (me of course)

Misc:
I won't bore you with stats or traits, just the feats that I'm looking at. I'm happy with the stats rolled and traits I've picked up. We are playing in the Serpent Skulls adventure path.

Premise of the Build:
The premise of this build and why I'm asking for help is that I'm going for a guy who gets up in the grills of the casters and/or ranged attackers and just destroys them with little or no possibility of going into his uncontrolled rage and hitting his allies. He won't let the enemies get away from him either or they will pay a huge price for trying.

Build Concept:
*Level (ftr/barb)
2/2: Power Attack
2/2: Furious Focus
2/2: Iron Will (retrained to Lunge @ level 4/2)
2/2: Step Up
2/2: Weapon Focus (Falchion)
3/2: Following Step
4/2: Monkey Lunge
5/2: Step Up & Strike
6/2: Weapon Specialization (Falchion)
7/2: Improved Critical (re-training at level 8/2 back to Iron Will if I can get Keen)
8/2: Critical Focus
9/2: Bleeding Critical
10/2: Greater Weapon Focus (Falchion)
11/2: Staggering Critical
12/2: Greater Weapon Specialization (Falchion)
13/2: Penetrating Strike
14/2: Critical Mastery
15/2: Combat Reflexes
16/2: Greater Penetrating Strike
17/2: Stunning Critical
18/2: Gore Fiend

Please feel free to tear it apart or let me know what you think of it and at what levels something might be better suited for the feats to be placed in or retrained. I'm very open to anything that might improve it.

Thanks in advance!

Trav

 

[Ramaster]

This seems reasonable. You won't be Tier 1, but the thing is that Step Up can really destroy a caster once you get close to him. As a barbarian you can get Superticious as a rage power and, frankly, I recomend you go Fighter 2 Barbarian 18. The fighter bonus feats are nice, but the barbarian gets some awesome stuff too (no to mention the useful barbarian skills like perception and survival). There are some barbarian rage powers that are totally worth it, like reckless abbandon and some of the totems.

Just a thought!

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Thanks for the suggestion. I understand that going more into barbarian and probably the invulnerable rager route with superstitious would be more ideal, but I'm pretty set on going with the current 2 barb/ 18 fighter for the story the character which is pretty important to me.

Any suggestions on the current build on how I could improve it w/o switching my planned path of 2barb/18ftr?

 

[Ramaster]

A quick browse of the relevant archetypes reveals that NON of them offers any significant advantage over the vanilla fighter...

The feat choice seems pretty much ok, but most of the choices can be made based on flavor or the type of campaign you are playing without significantly affecting the power level of the build.

The only addition I see here worth considering is going after the "trip" build. It offers some great control options but the obvious problem with it is that Falchions are not trip weapons...

If you can consider switching weapons (or tripping anyway) then I would recommend the Lore Master archetype which gives you some cool bonuses on your CMB and Combat Expertise practically free (replaces Bravery) on level 2.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Iron Will is not a combat feat, so you can't take it as a Fighter bonus feat and thus can't retrain it later. If you take it, you'd stuck with it. I'd recommend ditching it unless you really don't feel feat starved.

Monkey Lunge is awful, don't take it. Saving 2 AC for the cost of a feat and not full attacking (and I understand a lot of times you could not have anyway, but still) is not worth it.

Bleeding Critical...I get that you want to see some quick return on spending a feat on Critical Focus, which is clearly a feat tax. Just consider putting both off a level or whatever, so you can make Crit Focus your general feat and Bleeding Crit your Fighter feat, to swap for a better critical feat later. I just don't see it holding up as useful by higher levels (or, since Staggering Crit is available at ECL 13, just delay the whole thing till around then, Focus at level 10/2 and Staggering at level 11/2, and skip Bleeding entirely).

I would take Penetrating Strike at Fighter 12 over Greater Focus, just seems more useful to me.

What is Combat Reflexes doing in the build, and so late? Without reach or some trick to fuel lots of AoOs, it's much less useful, and if it were useful you'd want it earlier. Am I missing something you gain to get more AoOs around that level? Don't just take CR because you feel like you should, it should have a purpose, like if you were a trip build. Is it for the Step Up line? If so, you want it earlier.

I'd take Stunning Critical immediately at level 17 (level 15/2), if you've built up for critting, that one is really strong, no sense in delaying it.

Gore Fiend seems weak and unnecessary, and for some reason I thought you were Human, not Half-Orc. Get Extra Rage if you feel like you don't have enough rounds, and take it sooner than level 20. Your Uncontrolled Rage should stretch your Rage out plenty, though.



Other suggested feats:

Pin Down. It's MUCH better for a reach fighter, but you might find it useful. Wouldn't be able to take it till at least level 11/2, though. Perhaps as a fighter feat swap.

Either you or the Magus may want Butterfly's Sting. It's odd, being a critical feat that's not a combat feat nor requires Critical Focus, the annoying part is that it requires Expertise. Not sure who'd be better with it. Him to fuel your critical feats at higher levels, or you to help him critical with spells. If you decide to do a trip build and thus need expertise anyway, consider it.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Good Fighter archetypes:
(If it has an * that means check w/ DM if he'd count that archetype's Weapon Training replacement as Weapon Training. Gloves of Dueling in APG are a very strong mid level item, you don't want to lose out on that +2/+2)

Two-Handed Fighter - The Bravery replacement is even worse (but Bravery sucks, so...eh) and it kinda sucks losing all armor trainings. But this is the archetype that can rack up the most damage! Doesn't help much on a full attack, but on the rounds you can't, your damage will not be as low as normal. If you want DPR, I suggest this one.


Weapon Master - Again, lose all armor trainings which kinda sucks. But you get weapon training early and some of the higher level stuff works really well with a critical focus build.

Lore Warden - Like the other poster said, the best archetype for tripping and other combat maneuvers. Sucks to lose all armor trainings, but the early bonuses are pretty strong. I don't think Kow Thy Enemy is worth it till it's a swift action at 14/2, and wouldn't put much towards knowledges early on.


Mobile Fighter* - You still get the 2 most important armor trainings, the Bravery replacement is slightly better, you have the flexibility of getting weapon training bonuses with any weapon even ranged (may want Nimble Moves to ensure you can always 5 ft step, though), and eventually can semi-full attack on the move. Works best with Whirlwind Attack and a DM who allows it to function with Rapid Attack, though. RAW it should work, but he may balk.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Wow, thanks for all of the feedback Stream!

Iron Will is not a combat feat, so you can't take it as a Fighter bonus feat and thus can't retrain it later. If you take it, you'd stuck with it. I'd recommend ditching it unless you really don't feel feat starved.

Guess I didn't realize that I couldn't swap that feat out. I figure I'll just keep IW anyhow since that's in the current character sheet I submitted and by most accounts it's a very good feat to have. It will help with my uncontrolled rage saves anyhow, so it's nothing but good for me in my build.

Monkey Lunge is awful, don't take it. Saving 2 AC for the cost of a feat and not full attacking (and I understand a lot of times you could not have anyway, but still) is not worth it.

I guess the only reason I was taking this was to be able to take an AoO when something within my 10ft reach moved away and then I wouldn't suffer the -2AC when taking advantage of it especially if I'm surrounded by other enemies. Good point though that I should just skip it especially since as you state that I took combat reflexes too late.

Bleeding Critical...I get that you want to see some quick return on spending a feat on Critical Focus, which is clearly a feat tax. Just consider putting both off a level or whatever, so you can make Crit Focus your general feat and Bleeding Crit your Fighter feat, to swap for a better critical feat later. I just don't see it holding up as useful by higher levels (or, since Staggering Crit is available at ECL 13, just delay the whole thing till around then, Focus at level 10/2 and Staggering at level 11/2, and skip Bleeding entirely).

I've moved these around, great suggestions. I guess that bleeding critical isn't that great anyhow I was just trying to eek out a bit more damage, but the way you suggest to take the other feats a little sooner is definitely a better way to go.

I would take Penetrating Strike at Fighter 12 over Greater Focus, just seems more useful to me.

Good point, blowing through 5DR/attack is pretty nice compared to +2 damage per attack. I guess a lot of enemies will have DR at that level anyhow making this a better choice at the time.

What is Combat Reflexes doing in the build, and so late? Without reach or some trick to fuel lots of AoOs, it's much less useful, and if it were useful you'd want it earlier. Am I missing something you gain to get more AoOs around that level? Don't just take CR because you feel like you should, it should have a purpose, like if you were a trip build. Is it for the Step Up line? If so, you want it earlier.

Yeah I don't have trip in my build as I am obviously focusing on damaging with crits and with staying in the face of something, so I'm removing it entirely.

I'd take Stunning Critical immediately at level 17 (level 15/2), if you've built up for critting, that one is really strong, no sense in delaying it.

Done, great suggestion. I don't know why I put it in so late, probably saw the 17 and just plugged it in at the first 17 I saw w/o paying attention to 15/2 was 17.

Gore Fiend seems weak and unnecessary, and for some reason I thought you were Human, not Half-Orc. Get Extra Rage if you feel like you don't have enough rounds, and take it sooner than level 20. Your Uncontrolled Rage should stretch your Rage out plenty, though.

Another great point, I was just filling in the blanks at this point I think and couldn't think of something "better" to take here that didn't have a prereq and trying to go into another tree, but not getting any kind of advantage of.

Other suggested feats:

Pin Down. It's MUCH better for a reach fighter, but you might find it useful. Wouldn't be able to take it till at least level 11/2, though. Perhaps as a fighter feat swap.

I looked at this previously and decided against it, especially with the step up & strike already in the build, then it also requires CR as a prereq so in getting rid of CR I will have to just skip this feat as well.

Either you or the Magus may want Butterfly's Sting. It's odd, being a critical feat that's not a combat feat nor requires Critical Focus, the annoying part is that it requires Expertise. Not sure who'd be better with it. Him to fuel your critical feats at higher levels, or you to help him critical with spells. If you decide to do a trip build and thus need expertise anyway, consider it.

I hadn't even seen that feat before, it's pretty cool. I think the general plan for the group is for the magus/alch (who is going with a trip build) to team up with the monk (who does grappling). So I may suggest this feat to them since my personal plan is to try to stay away from the rest of the party (when I rage) in case of uncontrolled rages.

What do you think about going into vital strike? I know from everything I read that it isn't nearly as good as a full attack, but I thought maybe it might be worth it if I use it as an "opening" move when I run across the battlefield as a move/attack action just to get some extra "ump" out of a hit or when going against a BBEG with higher AC in which case attacks 3 & 4 at higher levels have a 50% + chance to miss and I'd rather go for a better chance to hit and blow the whole full attack on him that way?

I know there is tons of debate on the vital strike feats, but I can see it being pretty nice in this build.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Good Fighter archetypes:
(If it has an * that means check w/ DM if he'd count that archetype's Weapon Training replacement as Weapon Training. Gloves of Dueling in APG are a very strong mid level item, you don't want to lose out on that +2/+2)

Two-Handed Fighter - The Bravery replacement is even worse (but Bravery sucks, so...eh) and it kinda sucks losing all armor trainings. But this is the archetype that can rack up the most damage! Doesn't help much on a full attack, but on the rounds you can't, your damage will not be as low as normal. If you want DPR, I suggest this one.


Weapon Master - Again, lose all armor trainings which kinda sucks. But you get weapon training early and some of the higher level stuff works really well with a critical focus build.

Lore Warden - Like the other poster said, the best archetype for tripping and other combat maneuvers. Sucks to lose all armor trainings, but the early bonuses are pretty strong. I don't think Kow Thy Enemy is worth it till it's a swift action at 14/2, and wouldn't put much towards knowledges early on.


Mobile Fighter* - You still get the 2 most important armor trainings, the Bravery replacement is slightly better, you have the flexibility of getting weapon training bonuses with any weapon even ranged (may want Nimble Moves to ensure you can always 5 ft step, though), and eventually can semi-full attack on the move. Works best with Whirlwind Attack and a DM who allows it to function with Rapid Attack, though. RAW it should work, but he may balk.

I kind of thought about the 2h fighter archetype but ruled it out because of the armor thing. I wanted to be able to wear some good armor and still move my full 40ft, utilizing the barbarian movement aspect w/o having to invest feats into movement.

I will have to check with the DM about mobile fighter, I haven't looked into it very much. That sounds like something that I might want to go with if he allows (as you said) Weapon Training.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

O_O Didn't realize I used the word "suck" so much till I read my own posts. It's just such a powerful, efficient word to relay my thoughts on something in a succinct manner, I end up using it so much w/o even realizing, heh.

Wow, thanks for all of the feedback Stream!

No problem!

I guess the only reason I was taking this was to be able to take an AoO when something within my 10ft reach moved away and then I wouldn't suffer the -2AC when taking advantage of it especially if I'm surrounded by other enemies. Good point though that I should just skip it especially since as you state that I took combat reflexes too late.

You can only use Lunge on your own turn, it does not help on AoOs or anything else out of turn. So all Monkey Lunge is good for is not taking a -2 AC when using Lunge with a standard action attack action. Monkey Lunge doesn't help you with AoOs or Step Up & Strike or anything else at all like that.

Good point, blowing through 5DR/attack is pretty nice compared to +2 damage per attack. I guess a lot of enemies will have DR at that level anyhow making this a better choice at the time.

Actually...I forgot. In PF, a +X weapon can overcome various types of DR, and Penetrating Strike doesn't work on DR X/-- anyway, so it may not even be that useful if you can keep your sword enhanced well.

I looked at this previously and decided against it, especially with the step up & strike already in the build, then it also requires CR as a prereq so in getting rid of CR I will have to just skip this feat as well.

Actually may want CR if getting Step Up & Strike. SU&S burns an AoO to benefit from, but half the point of following in the first place is to threaten a caster or archer. If you have no AoOs left, you no longer threaten him (though a caster may not realize that and try to cast defensively anyway). So in most situations, without CR you're better off not using SU&S at all, which makes it a waste of a feat.

On another note, I'm starting to wonder if Following Step and SU&S are even that useful. Following Step's 10 ft movement seems completely unnecessary since it still has all the trigger requirements of Step Up (only when a foe 5 ft steps), and by RAW it may actually provoke an AoO! Both feats may actually not be worth taking. Even with all 3, it's an immediate action to use, so you can only do it once/turn, which by the end of a 3 feat chain seems too limiting.

What do you think about going into vital strike? I know from everything I read that it isn't nearly as good as a full attack, but I thought maybe it might be worth it if I use it as an "opening" move when I run across the battlefield as a move/attack action just to get some extra "ump" out of a hit or when going against a BBEG with higher AC in which case attacks 3 & 4 at higher levels have a 50% + chance to miss and I'd rather go for a better chance to hit and blow the whole full attack on him that way?

I know there is tons of debate on the vital strike feats, but I can see it being pretty nice in this build.

In my opinion VS isn't worth it. It'd be an extra 2d4 damage for you, 5 on average. I know you can't always full attack, but VS only ever seems worth it to me if you have massive base weapon damage, like a Druid wildshaped into a T-Rex with Imp. Natural Attack (bite) and Strongjaw spell.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Also, if you are going to have Furious Focus, I do suggest getting Dreadful Carnage at ~level 11. You don't need to hyperoptimize Intimidate. Just start throwing a lot of ranks into it until it's maxed and keep it there, and it's just a free bonus ability every time you drop a foe. Even if you only can intimidate enemies with like a 20% success rate, that's still a free area debuff EVERY single time you drop a foe.