D&D 5E Please help me with the “one spell cast per round” rule

[Tormyr]

Well again yes the ticks was just a fabrication to try and show different ways of seeing how they have placed additional restrictions on BA spells as not inexplicable - a way of them saying its six pounds of action in a five pound bonus sack.

1. Why is Misty Step "more restricted" than fireball? because that is how they chose to represent that limitation.

Like i have said, i would myself have no problem allowing you to cast Misty as a 1A and then surge fireball using your bonus action up for grabs for non-spell use and your reactions free. You used an example where dash is being used presumably by a character who can dash as a bonus action - and such a character can **still** dash as a normal action as well as using it as a bonus action - a flexibility blocked from BA casting time spells for some reason i myself do not understand.

I do not think anybody is arguing how good the rule is or that it is anything but an odd and quirky restriction with definite inconsistencies in what it allows and what it disallows.

But, what at least seems to be true about it is it seems this latest "confirmation" keeps to what the restriction says in the books, that casting a bonus action limits what spell can be cast on your turn to a 1 action cantrip as opposed to what some others had been ruling which was that action surge ended that restriction by giving you an additional action still on your same turn.

2. This latest bit is also consistent with how sneak attack works. The extra action from surge does not somehow lift the "in your turn" limit for sneak.

1. This is just saying that it is that way because it is, but it isn't 6 pounds of action in a five pound sack unless bonus actions spells do more or are slower than regular action spells. I compared dimension door to misty step for a reason. The more powerful teleportation spell that takes longer to cast still allows a creature to use their reaction. Everything else being equal, the "faster" spell lets you do less. There are a myriad of examples of how this does not make sense: flame strike vs healing word, meteor swarm vs any bonus action spell, using wish to change a bonus action spell to a regular action so that reaction spells suddenly work again, etc., but I have not yet seen how the bonus action spell rule as it currently is helps the game by restricting what a creature can do with a reaction or action surge.
2. This is a comparison of two very different concepts. Sneak Attack says you can only use it once per turn and is contained within itself: it does not affect another rule. The bonus action spell interferes with other features: it turns off reaction spells and changes what is allowed by Action Surge.

 

[Tormyr]

To be fair to Sage Advice, that forum is to respond to what the rules say, not make changes or recognize bad rules. Crawford usually is careful to respond with exactly what the rules say or were intended to say, good and bad. That channel isn't used to change rules or offer mea culpas on rules that might not work out as well as planned.

That said, I agree with you that this is a bad rule, and should be changed pretty much exactly how you've suggested.

Good point on sage advice, although I seem to remember them trying to have it be "Rules As Intended". It also seems like someone has a greater chance to get "Sage Advice" to be much more permissive if they ask Mearls instead of Crawford.

 

[ClaytonCross]

1. This is just saying that it is that way because it is, but it isn't 6 pounds of action in a five pound sack unless bonus actions spells do more or are slower than regular action spells. I compared dimension door to misty step for a reason. The more powerful teleportation spell that takes longer to cast still allows a creature to use their reaction. Everything else being equal, the "faster" spell lets you do less. There are a myriad of examples of how this does not make sense: flame strike vs healing word, meteor swarm vs any bonus action spell, using wish to change a bonus action spell to a regular action so that reaction spells suddenly work again, etc., but I have not yet seen how the bonus action spell rule as it currently is helps the game by restricting what a creature can do with a reaction or action surge.
2. This is a comparison of two very different concepts. Sneak Attack says you can only use it once per turn and is contained within itself: it does not affect another rule. The bonus action spell interferes with other features: it turns off reaction spells and changes what is allowed by Action Surge.

I really feel like this rule exists to keep Sorcerer Metamagic Quicken from being too powerful. I kind of think, if you restrict that metamagic to an cantrip or non-spell casting action then you can forget this rule and resolve all inconsistency. I get that a Cleric casting a lvl 7 Fire storm and a level 8 healing word on the same turn is a huge impact but I don't mind that ever as a player and as a GM I look at a Paladin 8/Eldrich knight 12 multiclass with 6 attacks and able to max smite out 5 of them so the issue is not players having a lot of action or a large impact. Really, Meteor swarm by itself is likely to over shadow both on its impact on a field of battle. So then your looking at a sorcerer casting Meteor swarm and Fire storm on the same turn... but if they took 2 levels of fighter they can still do that since neither is a bonus action. ...meh...

 

[5ekyu]

1. This is just saying that it is that way because it is, but it isn't 6 pounds of action in a five pound sack unless bonus actions spells do more or are slower than regular action spells. I compared dimension door to misty step for a reason. The more powerful teleportation spell that takes longer to cast still allows a creature to use their reaction. Everything else being equal, the "faster" spell lets you do less. There are a myriad of examples of how this does not make sense: flame strike vs healing word, meteor swarm vs any bonus action spell, using wish to change a bonus action spell to a regular action so that reaction spells suddenly work again, etc., but I have not yet seen how the bonus action spell rule as it currently is helps the game by restricting what a creature can do with a reaction or action surge.
2. This is a comparison of two very different concepts. Sneak Attack says you can only use it once per turn and is contained within itself: it does not affect another rule. The bonus action spell interferes with other features: it turns off reaction spells and changes what is allowed by Action Surge.

Actually here is the rub...

With sneak attack and action surge - if i have not used sneak attack, i can use it with my action surge. So i can for instance use my action to shove down my enemy and use my surge to strike with advantage and sneak against the prone.

On the other hand, is someone else knocked them down for me, i cannot use my strike with sneak and my surge strike with sneak.

That is very similar to how using a BA spell locks out surge from being a spell other than a 1 action cantrip.

Both follow the same guideline - surge does not void restrictions on actions allowed that occur because of other actions taken in the non-surge period. it does not give you a new turn for any restrictions.

As for misty step and DDoor, you are comparing a spell that is an action and uses the action slot as a "longer spell" when it is really whatever kind of resource use you want to envision it as. there is one simple thing - BA spells come with restrictions that 1 action spells do not. You can try and work around example after example of but what if this and what if that... but there is a simple game restriction placed on BA spell use that affects the entire turn.

And it is easy to change for your games if you want. There is nobody here that i see arguing that the RAW is flawless and wonderful rule design.

But Sage rules almost always try to stick to a strong reading of the RAW (its an errata avoidance thing i think.) So i was not surprised by the tweets i have seen referenced and how closely they match up with sneak and other "turn based" restrictions in the game.

Rule "surge" as a new "turn" instead of a new "action" if you want for your games.

Like i said, i would strongly consider removing the ruling that you cannot do BA as 1A but before i did that i would look elsewhere - not just at spells. there may well be other cases within the rules where allowing BA to be used as 1A produce problems or inconsistencies.

You could also just rule that reactions are excluded from other per-turn limits - again for all reactions not just spells - even on your own turn (unless you just want to say "here spell casters, you reactions are special and better than everyone else's" which is fine too.)

You likely have another half dozen ways to resolve it for your games.

So have fun!

 

[5ekyu]

I really feel like this rule exists to keep Sorcerer Metamagic Quicken from being too powerful. I kind of think, if you restrict that metamagic to an cantrip or non-spell casting action then you can forget this rule and resolve all inconsistency. I get that a Cleric casting a lvl 7 Fire storm and a level 8 healing word on the same turn is a huge impact but I don't mind that ever as a player and as a GM I look at a Paladin 8/Eldrich knight 12 multiclass with 6 attacks and able to max smite out 5 of them so the issue is not players having a lot of action or a large impact. Really, Meteor swarm by itself is likely to over shadow both on its impact on a field of battle. So then your looking at a sorcerer casting Meteor swarm and Fire storm on the same turn... but if they took 2 levels of fighter they can still do that since neither is a bonus action. ...meh...

i agree and thats why i have suggested even before we got that series of tweets that i myself wish it had been included under quicken not general spellcasting.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Sage Advice
"Is there a limit on the number of spells you can cast on
your turn? There’s no rule that says you can cast only X
number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical
limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells
require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like
the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on
your turn.
If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus
action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that
other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular
limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For
instance, if you cast a second spell using Actiion Surge, you
aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it"

To me that means that the limit is

1. If you cast a spell using your BA, your action (not action surge) is limited to a cantrip if you want to cast another spell.
2. Your action surge casting can be any 1 action spell you want, irrespective of other castings - this is specific rule breaking general.

 

[5ekyu]

Sage Advice
"Is there a limit on the number of spells you can cast on
your turn? There’s no rule that says you can cast only X
number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical
limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells
require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like
the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on
your turn.
If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus
action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that
other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular
limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For
instance, if you cast a second spell using Actiion Surge, you
aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it"

To me that means that the limit is

1. If you cast a spell using your BA, your action (not action surge) is limited to a cantrip if you want to cast another spell.
2. Your action surge casting can be any 1 action spell you want, irrespective of other castings - this is specific rule breaking general.

And to me it says if any bonus action spell is cast then for your turn you are limited by the cantrip rule.

Specific v general is key. Note that the answer says "specific to bonus action spells".

Note the word "second" spell.

This is to me rather clearly saying...

"The limitation of cantrip only for a second spell is only started by casting a bonus action spell. If you cast a 1 action spell and then used surge to cast a second spell it is not limited to cantrips."

It is not saying

"If you cast a spell with bonus action, the spell with your action is limited and a third spell with say a surge is not limited by that bonus action cantrip limit."

"Specific to spells that use bonus actions" and "a second spell using surge" mean something especially in the context given...

Remember while one tries and tease additional permissions out of the ruling the original actual rule RAW is this " You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."


the italicized reading has no conflict with the original rule and does not require ignoring the words "second spell" in the sage answer.

The underlined reading cannot say that.


Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app

 

[Tormyr]

And to me it says if any bonus action spell is cast then for your turn you are limited by the cantrip rule.

Specific v general is key. Note that the answer says "specific to bonus action spells".

Note the word "second" spell.

This is to me rather clearly saying...

"The limitation of cantrip only for a second spell is only started by casting a bonus action spell. If you cast a 1 action spell and then used surge to cast a second spell it is not limited to cantrips."

It is not saying

"If you cast a spell with bonus action, the spell with your action is limited and a third spell with say a surge is not limited by that bonus action cantrip limit."

"Specific to spells that use bonus actions" and "a second spell using surge" mean something especially in the context given...

Remember while one tries and tease additional permissions out of the ruling the original actual rule RAW is this " You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."


the italicized reading has no conflict with the original rule and does not require ignoring the words "second spell" in the sage answer.

The underlined reading cannot say that.


Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app

Unfortunately they could have written the Sage Advice entry better by putting the Action Surge text in the bonus action paragraph and providing a clear delineation between that and BA spells. By not separating the Action Surge case, they leave open the situation where someone uses a BA spell, performs an Action that is not a spell, and then uses Action Surge to cast another spell. According to BA spell rule, it has to be a cantrip. According to the Sage Advice text, the Action spell from Action Surge can be any spell if it is the second spell. Now they likely were thinking Action, Action for the Action Surge text, but it gets back to this being okay:

Action: Fireball
Bonus: Dash
Surge: Fireball

and this not:

Action: Dash
Bonus: Misty Step
Surge: Fireball

 

[Tormyr]

Actually here is the rub...

With sneak attack and action surge - if i have not used sneak attack, i can use it with my action surge. So i can for instance use my action to shove down my enemy and use my surge to strike with advantage and sneak against the prone.

On the other hand, is someone else knocked them down for me, i cannot use my strike with sneak and my surge strike with sneak.

That is very similar to how using a BA spell locks out surge from being a spell other than a 1 action cantrip.

Both follow the same guideline - surge does not void restrictions on actions allowed that occur because of other actions taken in the non-surge period. it does not give you a new turn for any restrictions.

1. As for misty step and DDoor, you are comparing a spell that is an action and uses the action slot as a "longer spell" when it is really whatever kind of resource use you want to envision it as. there is one simple thing - BA spells come with restrictions that 1 action spells do not. You can try and work around example after example of but what if this and what if that... but there is a simple game restriction placed on BA spell use that affects the entire turn.

And it is easy to change for your games if you want. There is nobody here that i see arguing that the RAW is flawless and wonderful rule design.

But Sage rules almost always try to stick to a strong reading of the RAW (its an errata avoidance thing i think.) So i was not surprised by the tweets i have seen referenced and how closely they match up with sneak and other "turn based" restrictions in the game.

Rule "surge" as a new "turn" instead of a new "action" if you want for your games.

Like i said, i would strongly consider removing the ruling that you cannot do BA as 1A but before i did that i would look elsewhere - not just at spells. there may well be other cases within the rules where allowing BA to be used as 1A produce problems or inconsistencies.

You could also just rule that reactions are excluded from other per-turn limits - again for all reactions not just spells - even on your own turn (unless you just want to say "here spell casters, you reactions are special and better than everyone else's" which is fine too.)

You likely have another half dozen ways to resolve it for your games.

So have fun!

The difference between sneak attack and the bonus action spell rule is not the end result. It is that Sneak Attack is self-contained. Other features can be used, but they do not alter Sneak Attack, and Sneak Attack does not alter them. The Bonus Action spell rule alters other features. My question has formulated over the course of this thread to, "What is the benefit of Bonus Action spells restricting reaction spells and Action Surge spells, and does it make sense?" It has taken me until now to say it that way, but I have been asking parts of it over the course of the thread.

1. I referred to dimension door as a longer spell than misty step because it is. The Bonus Action spell rule says that, "a spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift." This means that spells cast with an Action take longer because they are not especially swift. That is why I said that the longer, more powerful spell lets a creature do more because they can still use a reaction spell or any spell with an Action Surge.

Arguing that the Bonus Action spells are that way because that is how they are written in the rules does not help. I acknowledged that is how the rule is written and what Sage Advice has confirmed at the beginning and said it was poorly written because it limited a creatures options if they chose a faster BA spell over a slower Action spell and kept everything else the same over their turn. I have repeatedly asked, "what is the benefit of the BA spell rule excluding reaction spells and Action Surge spells?" Saying that "there is a simple game restriction placed on BA spell use" does not answer that question.

Note that I have not said, "What is the benefit of the BA spell rule?" or, "I think there should not be a restriction on BA spells at all." I like bonus action spells and the interaction with the first Action on a turn being a cantrip. I think that making a Quickened spell have a casting time of a Bonus Action is an elegant solution that merges Quickened Spell into the larger rule set. I do not know why a proposed solution would be to have Action Surge grant a full turn. That makes a change to a feature that is not the point of discussion, introduces further changes, and ignores reaction spells, and I already suggested removing the restriction on reaction spells and Action Surge spells which is a much more focused house rule.

But back to my question: "What is the benefit of Bonus Action spells restricting reaction spells and Action Surge spells, and does it make sense?" Everything else in a turn being the same, what is gained by restricting reaction spells and Action Surge spells when the only other spell cast has a casting time of a Bonus Action instead of an Action?

 

[Rossbert]

I think it is still about simplicity and elegance of the actual written rule. Adding except... except... would make it harder for newer less rule lawyers players for minimal benefit.

Also remember all things happen in the same 6 seconds so it is still going off real fast, you just don't get to do it all in a row without anyone else getting some turn.