Please rate Divine Vengeance

[Viktyr Gehrig]

This one's an easy house rule. Divine feats that affect attack, damage, or saving throw rolls are automatically free actions.

Otherwise, they're too painfully pointless to be allowed to exist.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Of course, it's only useful if a character anticipates fighting lots of undead, isn't very good at turning, and is set up to maximize his advantage from the feat. It's not a good feat but it isn't as useless as some are making it out to be either. It's certainly no Eagle Claw.

I think this would be the first time we have significantly differing opinions on a feat...

Any feat which is likely to be detrimental to a character if they use it, any feat that probably would not be used even if the DM gives the feat to the PC for free, that is a gods awful feat which never should have been written.

Even you concede that this feat doesn't make much sense unless the your turning is poor. If true, then buying Extra Turning fisrt is really digging a hole for yourself.

Eagle's Claw was only a waste of one feat. Perhaps this is a worst feat than Eagle's Claw?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think this would be the first time we have significantly differing opinions on a feat...

I don't know that our views on this feat are significantly different. I think it's a 3--very rarely useful and you apparently think it's a one--never useful.

Any feat which is likely to be detrimental to a character if they use it, any feat that probably would not be used even if the DM gives the feat to the PC for free, that is a gods awful feat which never should have been written.

Even you concede that this feat doesn't make much sense unless the your turning is poor. If true, then buying Extra Turning fisrt is really digging a hole for yourself.

Eagle's Claw was only a waste of one feat. Perhaps this is a worst feat than Eagle's Claw?

I don't think this a waste of 2 feats. Despite what I said before, there are other reasons than turning being poor that it might not be worth turning undead. A 5th level paladin with a decent charisma, for instance, faced by a Specter doesn't have a hope of turning it--heck, a 5th level cleric with the sun domain needs to roll phenomenally well in order to do anything useful to it with turning. That same 5th level paladin, facing a group of advanced large zombies in a desacrated temple of Llolth might find it advantageous Divine Vengeance more worthwhile than turning.

Also, Divine Might is good enough that a paladin might just want to have extra turning to power his Divine Might. Or his Divine Shield. And I think that Divine Vigor is probably a 5 so the paladin might want to power that too. So, Divine Vengeance is usually but not always a waste of one feat rather than two. Also, I can actually see a character designed to use the feat (the dual wielding or reach weapon paladin) making it look like a 4 or 5 or maybe even a 6 when facing undead. Eagle Claw, OTOH, is always a waste of one feat.

 

[smetzger]

3.58 after 38 votes.

10. None

9. None

8. Large and in Charge

7. Expert Tactician, Divine Might

6. Superior Expertise, Improved Sunder, Knock-Down, Shield Expert, Divine Shield

5. Close Quarters Fighting, Hold The Line, Pain Touch

4. Blindsight 5-foot radius, Fists of Iron, Death Blow, Lightning Fists, Mantis Leap, Monkey Grip, Power Lunge, Rapid Reload, Sharp Shooting, Zen Archery

3. Feign Weakness, Extra Stunning Attacks, Dual Strike, Circle Kick, Eyes in the Back of Your Head,
Off-Hand Parry, Pin Shield, Prone Attack, Remain Conscious, Divine Cleansing

2. Eagle Claw Attack, Improved Overrun, Dirty Fighting, Snatch Arrows

1. Divine Resisitance

 

[smetzger]

bump

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

What I want to know is where the token "above average and cool" votes come from. It seems like no matter how pathetic a feat is, it gets a few of those votes I'll bet the feat Insipidness: "This feat does nothing except use up a feat slot and entitle you to say 'I took it for role-playing purposes'" would get at least two "above average and cool" votes.

 

[Archer]

I said much the same thing about option 7 a lot time ago when eagle claw was getting 7's when it didn't do anything either. Some people are voting on this feat based on the concept that its a free action and you get the bonus for 2 full rounds. Many people read the AND as an OR instead such as for Monkey Grip.

Many feats with an average rating of 4 and below would fall in the "I wouldn't use this feat even if every character created got it for free" category.

 

[reapersaurus]

good points.
I was going to say something similar, but passed.
Now I'll point out:
47 votes.
14 people voted 5 or above.

WTF?
30% of the people who vote didn't read the feat before voting, or were on drugs, or accidentally voted wrong? (cause that's all that explains someone giving Divine Vengeance a 5 or more...)

what do they think is "average" for a feat (last I checked, most characters only get a few)?

 

[Archer]

If you read the feat itself there is no mention of it taking a standard action to activate. You spend one of your turning attempts to get a bonus to damage vs. undead until your next action. Most people know that when they say spend a feat to get + to damage in divine might they mean that spending a feat is not an action. Same language must mean the same thing right? That's why the feat doesn't have 45 "1" votes. No one uses the feat as taking a standard action. Either its not an action or no one uses the feat. Its as simple as that. I don't think there is a single player in world that has this feat and plays it as the supposed official "interpretation of the moment" says it should be used.

 

[Li Shenron]

If you read the feat itself there is no mention of it taking a standard action to activate. You spend one of your turning attempts to get a bonus to damage vs. undead until your next action. Most people know that when they say spend a feat to get + to damage in divine might they mean that spending a feat is not an action. Same language must mean the same thing right? That's why the feat doesn't have 45 "1" votes. No one uses the feat as taking a standard action. Either its not an action or no one uses the feat. Its as simple as that. I don't think there is a single player in world that has this feat and plays it as the supposed official "interpretation of the moment" says it should be used.

Right. I have voted it 5 or 6, I honestly don't remember anymore. I haven't used the feat yet in my campaign, and I read the definition posted by smetzger, which is the definition in DotF and doesn't say how to activate it: I indeed remembered that doomed line in DotF that states a standard action is required to activate any divine feat. I could not believe that line was written with all the divine feats in mind (and I still have the idea it was written by someone else than the author of DotF himself). I voted with absolute confidence that this feat has to be used without need to "activate" it.

Later I went back and read other people's posts... on which I mostly agree.

Is that line of doom the official rule? Yes. What does DotF and all other WotC accessory books say at the beginning, let's see... use as much of this book as you like and ignore the rest? Fine, I'll use the feats and ignore the rest. Including "the line".