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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 825852" data-attributes="member: 4937">I am not introducing an irrelevant argument.  I am trying to explain to you why someone would consider Energy Substitution (Sonic) to be cheesy.I am trying to show you that the above argument (and all similar ones) if it serves to defend Energy Substitution (Sonic) from the label 'cheesy', serves to protect everything from the label 'cheesy' no matter how cheesy it may be.Mind you 'cheesy' is not my prefered term.  I prefer 'unbalanced', but I'm assuming that the sentiment is basically the same.  When I think of cheesy I think of 'I'd be embarrassed to take that combo because I'd clearly be meta-gaming to gain the maximum advantage for my character by manipulating the rules system'.   Cheesy is like taking INT 14 in gurps + 2 points of weak will for every character, but stopping taking it when the DM crushes the combo by reducing the penalty for weak will.   'But its useful...' does not mean it isn't 'cheesy'I am not trying to say that you are wrong if you don't see ES (sonic) as cheesy.  Clearly the advantage gained thereby is only marginal, but noone is suggesting that advantage doesn't exist either.  I am, as I said, just trying to establish that if something is cheesy, that it is useful or that IC the character may see the power as useful, does not mean it is not cheesy.  If you believe the 'usefulness' of an ability justifies its existance without qualification, then you have to believe that 'Supreme Spell' is a justifiable non-cheesy feat.There really isn't a difference between a house rule and a published rule other than that one is published.   There are plenty of published rules out there that were much less well thought out than ES (sonic).I don't care what you do with your characters so long as they aren't in my campaign.   Do whatever you like.   I was just trying to show why some people might consider ES (sonic) cheesy, which you claim to not understand.   Frankly, I think you do understand, you are just being defensive.I certainly hope my players will be able to defeat 'my plans'.   If they don't, it is going to be a very short campaign.   What I don't want to see is a world filled with cookie cutter characters because thier are a limited number of 'best choices' which the player fills pressured to take else he is short changing himself.   I want to see a game where every player's personal style can be equally rewarding.   I don't want to see a campaign where players, after careful consideration, decide that ES (sonic) is 'the best' ES and take it accordingly.  That is conducive to roll playing, not role playing.Then again, if you can't see the difference between taking an advantage, and meta-gaming within rules limitations to maximize your advantage, then maybe you really don't understand.Making sonic restricted is philosophically no different than making 'unnamed', 'insight', or 'luck' bonuses rarer and therefore more expensive than 'enhancement' bonuses.  The rarity is itself an advantage.   Would you think it a good idea to allow Energy Substitution (Force) at the same cost as Energy Substitution (Electricity)?Like I said, this is a stylish feat, and I like it alot.  But sonic needs to have some limitations because it is just too good, and it would be even better if every energy descriptor provided its own particular 'style' (difficult though that might be to balance).</blockquote>

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