Please sell me on Grim Tales

Tellerve said:
hmm, so basically people don't cast too many spells I'm taking it as otherwise they could easily kill themselves after two spells. Yeah, no, or am I just reading something wrong here?

Well, yes and no. If you take the right talents, and you roll well, you could cast spells all day. It's just not likely and the repurcussions are bad enough to make you think twice about it.

Unfortunately, due to the restrictions on the d20 license, I was not able to discuss ability score generation in the book. Personally, I think the standard array, or a low point buy, is best.

Using those methods, character ability scores will be lower across the board than most D&D games with magic-boosting spells and items, and certainly lower than the results produced by 4d6 drop lowest.

The net result is that I think a starting character should count on no better than a 16 in his prime stat.

Now he wants to be a spellcaster, so he'll take the Magical Adept talent. That does several things for him. First, he gains caster level 1. Second, he gains Spellcraft as a core skill. And finally, he gains Spell Burn resistance equal to his primary spellcasting attribute modifier.

We'll assume he wants to be an arcane caster. He has a 16 Intelligence, +3 mod, so he has 3 points of spell burn resistance. And he can now cast up to 6th level spells (ability score -10, same method as D&D) and take STR, rather than CON, damage.

He can cast any spell he "knows." Learning a spell requires a Spellcraft check (DC15 + spell level) and more importantly, you're at the mercy of the DM as to which spells you get.

If you, as the DM, want to keep out flashy D&D spells and concentrate on more mood-appropriate spells, that's fine. You can use any spell from any product as long as it uses the standard spell "statblock." Technically, you don't even need that-- any spell with a spell level contains pretty much all you need to be able to "plug it in" to Grim Tales.

Now let's look at essentially two cases of casting a spell.

In the first case, because any character can learn and cast a spell, you have what we call an "untrained caster." (This also goes for spellcasters who cast spells outside their tradition-- arcane vs. divine and vice versa.) They take spell burn equal to 1d6 CON damage, and they have no resistance. They won't be casting many spells, but they could, if the fate of all mankind depended on it.

In the second case you have a magical adept. If he casts a spell of a level he can handle (ability score -10) he takes STR damage instead of CON damage. In addition, he gets spell burn resistance equal to his attribute modifier (on any spell he casts).

The unpredictable part that has not yet been mentioned is that when you roll spell burn, any die that comes up a "1" cannot be resisted. This is the mitigating factor that helps make spellcasting always dangerous and unpredictable and to put a realistic limit on it.

So... Our example magical adept (Int16, mod +3) casts a 3rd level spell. He takes 3d6 STR damage from spell burn. On each die of spell burn, he reduces the total by 3-- except for 1's, which he cannot reduce:

Die Roll ---> Damage
1 ---> 1 STR
2 ---> 0
3 ---> 0
4 ---> 1 STR
5---> 2 STR
6 ---> 3 STR

He's looking at anywhere from 0 to 9 points of STR damage for a single 3rd level spell, though the probabilities cluster towards about 3 STR. Still, even if he rolls amazingly crappy (all 6's) he can probably still cast two spells before he's helpless. If it's the right 3rd level spell at the right time, this could be pretty heroic and rewarding.

This is probably a good place to mention the caster level check-- you do have to make a caster level check to successfully cast a spell (DC10 + spell level). I highly recommend that if you are a fledgling spellcaster, you use an action point on this d20 check!

Now let's advance this caster to 20th level. Let's assume he puts +1 into his Intelligence every 4th level, bringing his Int to 21 and his spell burn resistance to +5.

Now when he casts a spell, he only takes a point of STR damage on a 1 and a 6. He can probably sling a few spells.

The real trick is that spellcasting is unfriendly enough to the caster, difficult to cast, very difficult to learn spells (completely at the mercy of the DM as to what and when you find new spells) that it takes a VERY dedicated person to want to be a "major" spellcaster. Most players would never invest the attribute boosts and the talents into spellcasting in the possibly futile hope that the DM will drop a spellbook where they can find it, only to possibly kill themselves when they finally do cast a spell.

From a meta-game, player's point of view, it's not very efficient (though granted, you have to opportunity to really come across as a major hero if you cast the right spell at the right time...)

Wulf
 

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I would also like to pipe in as to the usefulness of Grim Tales. I am using it in my D20 Modern Military-Style campaign (a ton of cool firearms rules and clarifications), but also plan to use the insanity rules and radiation rules in a D20
Variant of Fallout that Im working on. The magic system is very cool for DnD, and the insanity rules might also be a nice addition for a grittier feel in your game. Finally, the vehicle rules have worked for aerial and ground based chases in my Modern game, and is much faster than the standard D20 Modern rules. It is truly a gamer's toolkit that will potentially appeal to gamers of all genres.
 

While it's not difficult to transmogrify Western fantasy into Eastern (DMG gave suggestions, etc) but can Grim Tales do Kurosawa-ish D&D? Going a step further, can it do Asian fantasy better than OA?
 
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Nuclear Platypus said:
While it's not difficult to transmogrify Western fantasy into Eastern (DMG gave suggestions, etc) but can Grim Tales do Kurosawa-ish D&D? Going a step further, can it do Asian fantasy better than OA?

With some customization of equipment and some DM focus on atmosphere and background, I think GT would do fine for a chambara-style samurai epic, including the appropriate level of lethality in combat, but allowing heroes to use action points to survive against the odds.

GT focuses on crunch, so fluff needs to be developed by the GM, which (IMHO) is a good thing. And the GT classes are very flexible, which would allow characters to all play samurai, but have them very different from each other. The magic and creature mechanics would allow you to incorporate rare, creepy witches, mystical ninja and the like (a staple of cheesy low-brow chambara like the stuff that Chiba Shinichi used to do).
 

king_ghidorah said:
With some customization of equipment and some DM focus on atmosphere and background, I think GT would do fine for a chambara-style samurai epic, including the appropriate level of lethality in combat, but allowing heroes to use action points to survive against the odds.

GT focuses on crunch, so fluff needs to be developed by the GM, which (IMHO) is a good thing. And the GT classes are very flexible, which would allow characters to all play samurai, but have them very different from each other. The magic and creature mechanics would allow you to incorporate rare, creepy witches, mystical ninja and the like (a staple of cheesy low-brow chambara like the stuff that Chiba Shinichi used to do).

Well it shouldn't be too much of a problem since I'm sort of a Kurosawa addict and after cartoons was Saturday Afternoon Kung Fu Theatre (usually ninja movies) followed by the obligatory 'guys in giant rubber monster suits duking it out for world domination' movie. But Usagi Yojimbo is another fave influence. There's also another Japanese fantasy (live action) involving 8 warriors gathering to face off against a warlord and his witch mother / lover (she bathed in blood to stay young), which I don't think was the Hakkenden but its driving me insane trying to remember. Now, I could see some Eastman n Laird TMNT being done. How well can it handle martial arts?
 
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Wulf Ratbane said:
*Very cool, very detailed explanation of spellcasting from author of book*
I had a hard time reading this because everytime I got into it my hands seemed to develop minds of their own. My left hand kept reaching up to wipe the drool from my chin, and my right hand kept reaching for my wallet.

After purchasing every Bad Axe product so far, I see no reason to break the streak. Here, Wulf, have some more of my hard-earned money.
 

JoeBlank said:
*Very cool, very detailed explanation of spellcasting from author of book*

It's important to note here (as I did in another thread) a bit of errata in the rules as presented in Grim Tales.

Choosing the Improved Caster Level talent should not also grant an additional point of Spell Burn Resistance.

You could, of course, create a new talent or feat, Improved Spell Burn Resistance.

If you want to keep both caster level and resistance low, make it a talent.

If you want to allow a higher caster level in combination with better spell burn resistance, make it a feat-- but I would not make it a bonus feat for any class (it is only available as one of a character's normal "every 3rd level" feats).

Wulf
 

My only regret about Grim Tales is that it should have come out about a year ago, because my current campaign would have benefitted greatly from this ruleset.

I'm running the old WFRP Enemy Within campaign, but I had no stomach to try and fix the WFRP system, so I used d20 Modern to dial down the magic a bit. I'm pretty happy with it so far, but the inclusion of Grim Tales' expanded talent list, fear/horror/madness system, and nifty low-magic system would have been swell. Oh, and best of all, NO advanced/prestige classes.

I'd recommend this book to anyone who, while still wanting to stick with heroic d20, wanted less whiz-bang magic in the mix. Two thumbs up, with an added "I wish I'd thought of that".

Stray thoughts - I'd certainly look at picking up a Grim Tales Grimoire, based on the good judgement and quality of Grim Tales. Also, I'm not sure about all of the insanities, for while most of them are well described and include actual game penalties, some of them granted skill or initiative bonuses, and little in the way of penalties. Odd.
 

omnimpotent said:
Also, I'm not sure about all of the insanities, for while most of them are well described and include actual game penalties, some of them granted skill or initiative bonuses, and little in the way of penalties. Odd.

You're thinking of some of the Anxiety Disorders, primarily, to which I respond:

A little paranoia can be a good thing.

There may also be some sociopathic disorders that give you a boost to lying and deceiving. Sociopaths have the double-whammy of not only being practiced liars, but very often believing so genuinely what they are saying, even when it is a lie, that it is difficult for the observer to tell that they are lying.

And finally, some disorders let you rage (which is a good thing) or go berserk (which is not so good if you're standing next to the guy with the mini-gun when he goes bonkers).

Wulf
 

Nuclear Platypus said:
How well can it handle martial arts?

Depends on how you define that question. :\

There are no martial arts rules, per se. Thus, no special rules for maneuvers, attacks, etc. Same standard combination of d20 rules for combat and feats combined with d20 modern style talents. With the right way of describing combat-applicable talents and feats and a descriptive approach to combat, I think this will work out just fine for Japanese-style chambara combat, which is usually pretty gritty and direct. Especially in Kurosawa. It would not work as well for high-flying Chinese style wuxia combat without some house rules (and a plethora of supernatural abilities.)
 

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