Plot Device Characters

[Mouseferatu]

Shayuri, I just need to say that that's one of the most eloquent, effective, informative posts on any single given point that I've seen on EN World in a good long while. Kudos and XP to you.

 

[The Shaman]

Shayuri pwns the thread.

This is the money shot:

The trick is that, as has been said before and will be said again, a role-playing game does not really emulate popular culture fiction.

Very well said. Couldn't agree more.

 

[S'mon]

Good advice from Shayuri and fba827.

I think it might work in games where the players are taking on more of a Director-stance or Author-stance (to get a bit Ron-Edwardsian for a moment) rather than the normal Actor-stance. The less they identify with their PCs, the more they may be willing to buy into this. If they're playing established fictional heroes like DC Heroes or Marvel Super Heroes, or Kirk or Picard, it could work.

Another possibility is that the imp is not messing with the PCs, he's messing with some NPCs, maybe the Great & the Good of the campaign setting. If the PCs are annoyed at being in the shadow of some higher-level heroes, watching them get pantsed could be cathartic. Getting to then do something about it - foiling the imp - could be even better.

I notice how in the Justice League cartoons, Superman is always being incapacitated, and non-superpowered Batman often gets to save the day. That kind of approach might work.

But tormenting the PCs just for the sake of it, in a typical D&D campaign, is not a good idea.

 

[Mika]

I think the standard 4E way of handling a character like Q or the Cosmic Imp would be for the DM to work out a skill challenge whose goal is to influence the antagonist to either stop bothering the party or do something useful -- either that, or make the antagonist a bully who does not gain power along with the PCs. In the former case, the PCs would eventually be able to transform the antagonist from an annoyance to a useful resource. In the latter case, the PCs may eventually get the satisfaction of beating him up. The key point is that there should be SOMETHING that the PCs can do about him.

 

[Cyronax]

Good advice from Shayuri and fba827.

I think it might work in games where the players are taking on more of a Director-stance or Author-stance (to get a bit Ron-Edwardsian for a moment) rather than the normal Actor-stance. The less they identify with their PCs, the more they may be willing to buy into this. If they're playing established fictional heroes like DC Heroes or Marvel Super Heroes, or Kirk or Picard, it could work.

Another possibility is that the imp is not messing with the PCs, he's messing with some NPCs, maybe the Great & the Good of the campaign setting. If the PCs are annoyed at being in the shadow of some higher-level heroes, watching them get pantsed could be cathartic. Getting to then do something about it - foiling the imp - could be even better.

I notice how in the Justice League cartoons, Superman is always being incapacitated, and non-superpowered Batman often gets to save the day. That kind of approach might work.

But tormenting the PCs just for the sake of it, in a typical D&D campaign, is not a good idea.

I already know at least one of my players saw this thread. No harm in it, he's a good roleplayer.

Anyway, the advice 'DONT DO IT' is exactly what I expected. Thanks for at least proving the concept to be very difficult to pull off. I was actually going to stat out this 'cosmic' character as a (low) Epic NPC that might encounter the PCs, but it would've effectively felt 'cosmic' due to high social skill rolls (i.e. regional influence).

I wanted to specifically comment on S'Mon's post because he inadvertently caught my unstated intention: the 'cosmic imp' won't actually care about the PCs. Its more concerned with a specific NPC. The PCs would've been caught up in something that they may or may not want to battle.

The 'imp' would've been circumscribed at a specific point from hurting them directly due to an intervention by the three goddesses of Good/Normal in my world.

Well, this thread already served its purpose. It helped me brainstorm a little, and I think that I'm going to scrap the concept. As much as I see its potential within the overall plot of our campaign, its probably bound to be too annoying.

Thanks for helping me. I still would enjoy discussing ways to make this sort of plot work for non-4e campaigns. Does it work in Mutants & Masterminds (as with my initial comment about M&M's sidebar)? Do other specific genres work with this? For instance, would a Cthulu-style game, or some such, work if an angel were working behind the scenes to counter the pull of cthonic forces in the game world?

C.I.D.

 

[Relique du Madde]

I already know at least one of my players saw this thread. No harm in it, he's a good roleplayer.

Anyway, the advice 'DONT DO IT' is exactly what I expected. Thanks for at least proving the concept to be very difficult to pull off. I was actually going to stat out this 'cosmic' character as a (low) Epic NPC that might encounter the PCs, but it would've effectively felt 'cosmic' due to high social skill rolls (i.e. regional influence).

I wanted to specifically comment on S'Mon's post because he inadvertently caught my unstated intention: the 'cosmic imp' won't actually care about the PCs. Its more concerned with a specific NPC. The PCs would've been caught up in something that they may or may not want to battle.

The 'imp' would've been circumscribed at a specific point from hurting them directly due to an intervention by the three goddesses of Good/Normal in my world.

Well, this thread already served its purpose. It helped me brainstorm a little, and I think that I'm going to scrap the concept. As much as I see its potential within the overall plot of our campaign, its probably bound to be too annoying.

Thanks for helping me. I still would enjoy discussing ways to make this sort of plot work for non-4e campaigns. Does it work in Mutants & Masterminds (as with my initial comment about M&M's sidebar)? Do other specific genres work with this? For instance, would a Cthulu-style game, or some such, work if an angel were working behind the scenes to counter the pull of cthonic forces in the game world?

C.I.D.

I don't think it would work in a Cthulhu game because the nature of the cosmic imp goes against the nature of that genre's antagonists (or it's general feel). Mythos creatures are alien and uncaring for human existance and even those who are human have motives that are antithetical to humanity as a whole. Were one to toy with a human it would not be innocent in nature, it would be far crueler and darker and sinister. A Mythos Cosmic Imp would cause your brains to melt out and then feed you your still beating heart as "joke."

In M&M games however, I think they work because they are complications and tools of GM fiat that help build up Hero Points for a game's climactic encounter.

 

[Cyronax]

The Cosmic Imp works, and is funny, in genres like Star Trek and superhero comics because they exist pretty much for no reason other than to pants the heroes.

Fun to read (in moderation)...sucky to be the one who has to yank his drawers back up off the floor when it's done.

You sir made a great post. Just wanted to say it. That kind of response was why I made the thread.

C.I.D.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Shayuri's post is gold.

This, also:

Another possibility is that the imp is not messing with the PCs, he's messing with some NPCs, maybe the Great & the Good of the campaign setting. If the PCs are annoyed at being in the shadow of some higher-level heroes, watching them get pantsed could be cathartic. Getting to then do something about it - foiling the imp - could be even better.

And this:

I think the standard 4E way of handling a character like Q or the Cosmic Imp would be for the DM to work out a skill challenge whose goal is to influence the antagonist to either stop bothering the party or do something useful -- either that, or make the antagonist a bully who does not gain power along with the PCs. In the former case, the PCs would eventually be able to transform the antagonist from an annoyance to a useful resource. In the latter case, the PCs may eventually get the satisfaction of beating him up. The key point is that there should be SOMETHING that the PCs can do about him.

Have him annoy NPC's, and give the PC's some agency to influence or change his opinions/mind/actions.

I've also gotta say that this might work with some Fey in D&D (assuming the above is still true). The oldest "Cosmic Imps" in the book are tricksy underhill folk who want your firstborn sons. They can get one-upped, though (Rumplestiltskin!), and the POINT is that they get one-upped, eventually. Their hubris is often their downfall. They think they're more Cosmic than they really are. Even Loki eventually gets his butt handed to him (until Ragnarok anyway), and Coyote and Raven and all those other primordial tricksters all have their weaknesses (usually for pretty people, shiny things, or the sound of their own voice). Eladrin and other Fey, especially in 4e, might be pretty good to explore this avenue with.

Again, though, give the PC's the ability to influence the creature, even if it annoys them at first. If it is indeed a force beyond player control or confrontation, it doesn't have much of a place at the table, since it would come across basically like a DM power trip (because the idea of an entity of vast cosmic power who makes life difficult for the characters is basically what a DM is anyway).

 

[Shayuri]

Goodness. I am humbled. Thank you all.

For what it's worth, I do think the D&D fey could be used deftly, and with a fairly light touch, to create situations sort of like Cosmic Imps without turning players off.

For one, I think it's easier to stomach when the Imp doesn't actually do anything -directly- to the PC's, but rather manipulates the environment or other characters. Don't turn 'em into rabbits, turn the castle into a giant rabbit hole that they're now stuck in. That kind of thing. Then the 'cosmic imp' is really more of an environmental hazard, which is a legitimate Hero's Challenge, and they'll rise to the occasion.

Another thing would be to do something they actually did in Star Trek a few times, which is to make the Imp's interference kind of secondary. The PC's are here on a mission, and the Imp shows up and introduces a complication, then leaves. Maybe it switches their bodies around, or turns them blue, or in some way changes things so that the PC's have to change their plans to compensate...but otherwise doesn't mess with them. That again leaves them with agency....they can still do their quest, it's just trickier now.

Also, as others have very accurately pointed out, much will be forgiven by players who've had the opportunity to get catharsis. After a few scenarios with an Imp, the PC's will want...and likely deserve...some well-earned Imp-thwarting.

 

[Quantum]

Hmmmm... I'd think the modules that dealt with The Time Of Troubles in the Forgotten Realms would provide some inspiration. This is from 2e.

Essentially the gods were kicked out of their realm. Some of them tried to return.

Here's the Wiki on it if you're interested:

Time of Troubles - The Forgotten Realms Wiki - Books, races, classes, and more