Plot-driven training, outside of level advancement

[Prestidigitalis]

As it stands, if a character wants to "train" to become better at something, the mechanics require that it be done as part of power/feat/skill selection or retraining upon achieving a new level.

How would you feel about a "training bonus" (really just a special kind of circumstance bonus) based on training done during down time, actually role-played (optionally), and limited in application to a specific time frame?

Examples:

The party will be leaving in two weeks to traverse a treacherous mountain range with no known passes. They can buy all the right equipment. They can allow the character with the best Athletics skill to lead. There even acquire a ritual to use daily to assist in some way. But could they not also train in climbing techniques before they set out? If they train for one week, they receive a +2 circumstance bonus to Athletics checks for climbing; the bonus lasts for one month minimum, but continues so long as they do substantial climbing every week, i.e. until they have crossed that mountain range.

The party will be leaving in 3 days to fight a powerful fire-breathing dragon. They have acquired spells, potions and other magic items to help them resist fire. They even let a tiefling join up just for the occasion. But
could they not also practice smothering fires? If they train for one day, they receive a +2 circumstance bonus to checks involving extinguishing fires on all creatures, including themselves; the bonus lasts for one week minimum, but continues so long as they use or practice the techniques every day.

Is this something you just already do? If not, does it sound useful? Is there another way of handling such training, maybe in the DMG or DMG2?

 

[the Jester]

I could go for something like that.

I also allow for special powers, feats, etc. that can only be accessed if the character gets trained by a master, organization, whatever it might be.

 

[Infiniti2000]

A +2 temporary circumstance bonus to climbing checks sounds reasonable, but not for anyone who is actually training in Athletics. I mean, really, that's what the +5 is supposed to represent. Now, does it make sense to give everyone else +2 and step on their toes? Not sure.

The real problem is that you will have to make a judgment call. Maybe you know enough about climbing to say whether this makes sense. But, the precedent it sets (a slippery slope) is tough. Your "smothering fires" extension is an example of this. No way would I allow "smothering fires" to grant +2 to anything. That's just plain ridiculous.

In the end, it all amounts to an opportunity cost. Any training they undertake has to have a cost. People will not spend a week of their lives training you for free. Anyone who is trained is not necessarily trained as a trainer, so I don't buy that the party member with Athletics can do this. Plus, there are equipment costs, etc. All of these costs should effectively amount to some item or items (consumables?) that would grant +2 over the course of the adventure.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Your "smothering fires" extension is an example of this. No way would I allow "smothering fires" to grant +2 to anything. That's just plain ridiculous.

So you think that spending a day or two showing someone how to effectively roll on the ground, use available dirt or sand or tapestries, etc., to smother a fire couldn't possibly grant as much as +2 to a check on putting out a fire? I'm not talking about neutralizing the entire dragon -- just increasing the odds of passing a save against ongoing damage, or passing the Aid Another check to help someone else do so.

Is it that you believe any adventurer already knows that stuff? That they are so hardened to the various dangers of an adventuring life that it's already old hat?

I admit that when I wrote that example I was thinking more of real life -- that there are plenty of people who flail helplessly when there is plenty that could be done, simply for lack of training. It may not be the best example.

 

[Mengu]

In general, I say no to such things. Characters already know as much as they need to about climbing. Those who are trained, know more. If I want characters to have an easier time to cross some mountains, I lower the DC's. Characters already know how to roll around on the floor and put out fires. It is what they do for a living.

If I want to have one part of the game impact another part, here is how I handle it. They are looking for ways to cross the mountains. They look for a guide. They go through some hoops, get lost a bit, but eventually find the guide, only to realize the guide had one leg torn off by an angry grillon the other day, and can no longer walk. He is also in a bad mood due to his injury. So the PC's have to get him in a good mood, and then accurately copy some of his maps, listen to and commit to memory his experiences. So this becomes a mini skill challenge with Diplomacy to calm him down (or maybe Bluff to bribe him with some promises), Heal to ease his pains, History/Nature to commit things to memory, Dungeoneering/Nature, maybe Thievery to copy his maps accurately. Maybe scatter a few more skills for entertainment. If they succeed in this mini skill challenge, then perhaps some of the DC's for the bigger skill challenge of getting through the mountains will be lowered by a couple points.

The game mechanics are built to provide appropriate challenges for characters. The challenges may change, or be impacted by a chain of encounters. But I try not to make anything free. They have to earn it. And if they do, I'll make sure they come to the realization that they perhaps succeeded in a certain encounter only because of a previous victory.

 

[Scribble]

Could you do this with the alternate awards system in the DMGII?

Make it function kind of like a Boon or something?

Aside from that- I don't think the +2 is really unreasonable... Like an "I'm brushing up on my knowledge before the big exam" sort of bonus. Not enough hard core studying to really let it sink in as a permanent bonus, but one that lasts a short time maybe.

 

[Solvarn]

As it stands, if a character wants to "train" to become better at something, the mechanics require that it be done as part of power/feat/skill selection or retraining upon achieving a new level.

How would you feel about a "training bonus" (really just a special kind of circumstance bonus) based on training done during down time, actually role-played (optionally), and limited in application to a specific time frame?

Examples:

The party will be leaving in two weeks to traverse a treacherous mountain range with no known passes. They can buy all the right equipment. They can allow the character with the best Athletics skill to lead. There even acquire a ritual to use daily to assist in some way. But could they not also train in climbing techniques before they set out? If they train for one week, they receive a +2 circumstance bonus to Athletics checks for climbing; the bonus lasts for one month minimum, but continues so long as they do substantial climbing every week, i.e. until they have crossed that mountain range.

The party will be leaving in 3 days to fight a powerful fire-breathing dragon. They have acquired spells, potions and other magic items to help them resist fire. They even let a tiefling join up just for the occasion. But
could they not also practice smothering fires? If they train for one day, they receive a +2 circumstance bonus to checks involving extinguishing fires on all creatures, including themselves; the bonus lasts for one week minimum, but continues so long as they use or practice the techniques every day.

Is this something you just already do? If not, does it sound useful? Is there another way of handling such training, maybe in the DMG or DMG2?

I like the idea of it in a couple of circumstances. Said preparation allows you to scale the difficulty up a little.

or

Time spent on undergoing additional training uses up valuable time as a resource; when the clock is ticking or there is an event that the PC's know about this kind of thing can really inject illusion of choice and immediacy into an adventure.

Overall I think it's a cool idea, but one I might use sparingly for effect.

 

[Keenberg]

I'm a big fan of RP training and allow for a great deal of it.

I have a character who bought bibles in a merchant city so that she could study religion. I gave the books some interesting twists: one book is magic and reads quickly, one is normal, one is alive and converses with her.As she finishes them, she gets +1's to religion. Once she reads them all, she'll have a total of +5 to religion.

I have a Fighter who found a superior weapon (Execution Axe) and is not trained to use it. He used it without the proficiency bonus at first because he is a "Great Weapon Fighter." After a few encounters, I gave him proficiency with that one weapon.

To some things up, I like to call the DM's Guide the DM's Guidelines. I let them guide me, but I play the game the way that makes sense to me.

 

[fba827]

Is this something you just already do? If not, does it sound useful? Is there another way of handling such training, maybe in the DMG or DMG2?

While not exactly the same as what you're talking about, there is something very similar in DMG2.

The thing in DMG2 is more to represent exemplary things (learning special techniques from a grand sword master, bathing in the blood of a certain epic dragon, performing an exceptional divine act that saved a religion itself)

But, supposing for a moment that this could also apply to something more mundane like mountain climbing training ....

You'd basically come up with a power/property and equivalent magic item level (i.e. would this +2 athletics count as a level 2 magic item property, would this encounter power to make a free save against ongoing fire damage be the equivalent of a power you'd find on a level 3 magic item, etc)

Then you'd get the training boon (in the form os a bonus/property/daily power/etc). In exchange, the DM would consider it to take the place of a level X magic item (presuming your campaign uses standard treasure parcels).

Per DMG2, such things remain with the PC for a few levels or longer.
(if you were doing magic items "by the book" in your campaign, that would represent the amount of time the equivalent magic item would be with you before it lost its value in favor of more powerful magic items that you'd put in those same slots, etc)


Alternatively, you could simply role-play the fact that you trained during downtime, but gain no real game mechanics benefits since you'd only be using it for the one journey/trek and just rely on the extra equipment (climbing gear) and rituals (endure elements) etc...therefore the training itself may be incidental in the grand scheme if it's not going to be the focus beyond a single session's trek.


Alternatively, RP it out (let's look at the geography maps of that mountain, and understand the rock composition etc to know what gear would work best, etc) and then ask the DM for a +1/+2 circumstance modifier based on the specific training you did in prep for the specific journey


Alternatively, if doing skill challenges to cross the mountain, I think that would probably account for pre-knowledge... nature/dungeoneering/history/athletics/etc is what the PC has already learned (including incidental preplanning for the journey).


So, bottom line, there are similar things to what you're asking, but nothing exactly the same.. and it comes down to what you can trick convince your DM into

 

[Prestidigitalis]

So, bottom line, there are similar things to what you're asking, but nothing exactly the same.. and it comes down to what you can trick convince your DM into

Gosh, if only I had the kind of DM who was easily tricked...