podcast: 4th edition combat too long

[Kaodi]

As I recall, Sara seemed to be happier when the game was over and they were being interviewed on it.

Jennifer seemed to be fairly into it when it was her turn. Also, as an off topic side note, aybe others have seen its type before, but I thought her shirt was awesome.

 

[Grazzt]

Wow. That was awful.

I'm with KarinsDad re: non-gamer perception of this thing. Were I someone who *may* be interested in D&D , I'd say that Podcast would a be a big reason for me to check out a MMORPG or go back to my X-box.

Definitely agree.

 

[JohnBiles]

Just my 2 cents here, but they also seemed to miss a lot in part 2 of that Penny Arcade audio podcast. (After Jim Darkmagic's early run of beginner's luck, that is.)

Maybe monsters are just hard to hit in this version of the game?

I mean, there's a difference between "the players keep rolling ones," and "the players need to roll a 17 to hit." Do we know which was the case here?

Some monsters are, some are not. To take Keep on the Shadowfell as an example:

The first encounter has:
Slinger (Artillery 1, HP 24, AC 13/Fortitude 12/Reflex 14/Will 12)
5 Minions (AC 15/Fort 11/Ref 13/Will 11, all defenses drop 2 if not next to another Kobold)
2 Dragonshields (Soldier 1, HP 36, AC 18, Fort 14, Ref 13, Will 13)

Turk was the Fighter PC of one of my players (Str 16, Con 16, 31 HP, AC 17, Fort 15, Ref 11, Will 13, Maul: +6 to hit, 2d6 +3 damage, At-Wills: Cleave, Reaping Strike)

Turk needs a 7 or better to hit a Slinger, 9 or better to hit a minion (and with Cleave, he can kill 2 minions with one attack), 11 or better to hit the Dragonshield.

Dr. Orpheus is a Tiefling Warlock with an 18 Con. His eldritch blast and Hellish Rebuke At-wills target Reflex with +4 to hit, +5 if he's closer to the target than any other PC or if the target is bloodied. (+6 if both apply). Under normal conditions, he hits the Slinger on a 10, the Minions on a 9 or higher, and the Dragonshield on a 9 or higher.


To take a higher level example, Katherine is an 11th level rogue, multi-classed to Wizard. Her at-will attacks:

• Ray of Frost (Ranged 10, +8 vs. Fortitude, 1d6 + 3 Cold and Slow (save ends), Crit: 9 and Slow (save ends)
• +3 Vicious Shortsword--Deft Strike (Move 2 squares before attack, +15 vs AC, 1d6+10, Crit: 16+3d12)
• +3 Vicious Shortsword--Sly Flourish (+15 vs. AC, 1d6+13, Crit: 19+3d12)
• +2 Frost Shortsword--Deft Strike (Move 2 squares before attack, +14 vs. AC, 1d6+9 Cold or Normal, Crit: 15+2d6 Cold or Normal)
• +2 Frost Shortsword--Sly Flourish(+14 vs. AC, 1d6+12 Cold or Normal, Crit: 18+2d6 Cold or Normal)

She faces a Snaketongue Celebrant (11 Controller, AC 24; Fortitude 22, Reflex 20, Will 24), a Dire Bear (11 Elite Brute, AC 25; Fortitude 25, Reflex 22, Will 23), A Drow Warrior (11 Lurker, AC 24; Fortitude 20, Reflex 22, Will 19), a Legion Devil Hellguard (11 Minion, AC 27; Fortitude 23, Reflex 22, Will 22; raise all defenses by 2 if adjacent to another LDH), and a Chain Devil (11 Skirmisher, AC 25; Fortitude 22, Reflex 24, Will 19).


Her Ray of Frost hits the Celebrant on 14 or more, the Dire Bear on 15 or more, the Drow on a 12 or more, the Legion Devil on a 15 or more, and the Chain Devil on a 14 or more. But it's from her secondary class.

With her melee attacks, she often will have +2 from combat advantage and do bonus damage of 3d8. We'll calculate with and without it.

To hit the Celebrant with her +3 Vicious Shortsword with either of her at-wills is 9 or better. To hit the Dire Bear is a 10 or more. To hit the Drow is a 9 or more. To hit the Legion Devil is 12 or more, and to hit the Chain Devil is 10 or more. This rises by 1 if she's hitting with her +2 Frost Shortsword and drops by 2 if she has combat advantage.

Fighting things above your level will quickly hurt your odds: Up against a Blackspawn Gloomweb (Level 16 Lurker, AC 30; Fortitude 26, Reflex 27, Will 20), even Katherine's best at-wills drop to hitting on a 15 or better or 13 if she's got combat advantage.



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[jasin]

Yeah, but did you sound like excited, inarticulate dorks, who were having fun?

Yes. Laughing and shouting all the time, even a round of applause (when the goblin hexer used his "sacrifice a minion to get out of a ranged attack" ability).

 

[Keenath]

I haven't read every single post in the last 7 pages, so somebody might've mentioned this, but --

As far as everyone being kind of quiet and not sounding like they were having much fun... beyond the intimidation factor of the camera, the party was doing badly. There's nothing like a series of bad rolls to suck the fun out of a room and make people quiet.

Don't hold it against them... or against the game.

 

[Felon]

Peter, the fighter guy, seemed timid at first. And Rodney, I think he was the Wizard, appeared to do nothing for the first couple of rounds. I know that's not true, but they were too quiet, too passive...and neither could roll anything in double digits! Both *started* to come on towards the end, they still weren't rolling well, but it looked like they were getting into it.

I think people appeared to be doing nothing because in 4e you A) only attack once per round, and B) defenses scale so that you can have a bad chance of hitting at any level. As stated a few pages back, the mind flayer's lowest defense was 33. If you're attacking in the +16-18 area, that's a problem. 300+ hit points also means lots of grinding before you see a ROI.

 

[hong]

I think people appeared to be doing nothing because in 4e you A) only attack once per round, and B) defenses scale so that you can have a bad chance of hitting at any level. As stated a few pages back, the mind flayer's lowest defense was 33. If you're attacking in the +16-18 area, that's a problem. 300+ hit points also means lots of grinding before you see a ROI.

From experience, you _can_ stack bonuses so that you have a good chance of hitting that 33. But that takes experience at tactical gameplay, and isn't something new players would pick up immediately.

 

[Felon]

From experience, you _can_ stack bonuses so that you have a good chance of hitting that 33. But that takes experience at tactical gameplay, and isn't something new players would pick up immediately.

There's certainly much to be said for cleric buffs in this edition. I wouldn't knock a bless at any level.

 

[Felon]

As far as everyone being kind of quiet and not sounding like they were having much fun... beyond the intimidation factor of the camera, the party was doing badly. There's nothing like a series of bad rolls to suck the fun out of a room and make people quiet.

I don't think the people seemed nervous or initimidated. They seemed understimulated, not overstimulated. I just don't think most of them were revved up about what they were doing. There needs to be a sense of anticipation and investment, and a one-off with some strangers might not do it for it a lot of folks.

 

[Andur]

All I know is there hasn't been a 4e game I've played in yet, where I could drive to town, get pizza and get back and it still not be my turn...

They should have gotten Vin Diesel to DM and then Playmates to run PC's. Tactics and die rolls would probably be the same, but at least the podcast would be entertaining.