D&D 4E Point buy, 4e & you.

[hong]

ppl, D&D is not PvP, kthx.

 

[Lanefan]

Statistics Update

Please see post #58 this thread before reading this, or it won't make much sense...

**Those who do not like statistics may wish to jump to the next post now. You have been warned!**

Findings so far:
- there's a rather wide variance in the stat-power level within the top 69, and even within the top 10, when average of the 6 stats is compared;
- taking the top 69, breaking them down into groups of 10, and taking the overall average stat for each block (add the 6 stats together, repeat 10 times, divide by 60) the 1-10 group has the lowest overall average of the seven groups as follows:

1-10 14.11
11-20 14.32
21-30 14.84
31-40 14.27
41-50 14.54
51-60 14.14
61-69 14.29

So, among the high end there's little difference between a 10-adventure character and a 25-adventure character...this alone indicates that once a character's career is nicely started, stats probably don't matter very much in terms of keeping it going.

I'll update once I've done the number-crunching with the control group.

And this is the update promised above.

I ran a control group of 70 characters, all of whom died (as oppsoed to retired) before finishing their tenth adventure. Over half of the 70 didn't get out of their first adventure. They joined in parties of varying levels - some were starting characters in their campaigns, some joined later, etc.

What I found is that, for those characters who got through 2 or more adventures, the stat average was strikingly close to the top 69 referenced above, somewhere around 14.0 to 14.3.

Those who died really early had a slightly lower stat average...closer to 13.6.

What this tells me loud and clear is that while stats might make a bit of difference in getting you through your first few adventures, once you've got through the first couple your stats make no statistical difference at all.

So, I have to ask: why bother with all this straitjacketing of stats. Roll the dice!

Lanefan

 

[Jack Colby]

I'm sure the weighting of high stats in point buy is to make it balanced against random rolling (which I always use anyhow.)

 

[Badgerish]

What I like to do is: at the beginning of a campaign, everyone rolls a d10. Then, for the next two years of gaming, they get to add the resulting number as a bonus to every die roll they make.

I actually do that, but in addition I multiply the characters' hitpoints by that same number. It allows really heroic characters!

<twitch> <twitch> I know this is satire...but still!

<goes to lie down in a dark room>

I'm pro-pointbuy and other systems that encourage character-power-parity (I do like the 'roll 21d6 once for the party, players assign dice in groups of 3' method). This is mostly due to a desire for 'fairness' but also in part due to my horrible rolling at this type of thing.

 

[mattdm]

Why? The system, as written, rewards you for maxing out your attack stat and either going 13/13 or 14/11 in your secondary and tertiary stats and ignoring everything else.

I don't think we've played with it enough to come to that conclusion. While I think you're right that the system requires concentrating on three stats, I don't think you can discount the cost of having your other (non-primarly-stat-based) defenses be low. And, there's currently many feats with off-stat prereqs and I'm sure there will be more. Concentrating on boosting just one stat, or even just two stats, clearly has a meaningful price.

 

[Voss]

I don't think we've played with it enough to come to that conclusion. While I think you're right that the system requires concentrating on three stats, I don't think you can discount the cost of having your other (non-primarly-stat-based) defenses be low. And, there's currently many feats with off-stat prereqs and I'm sure there will be more. Concentrating on boosting just one stat, or even just two stats, clearly has a meaningful price.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.
A 4e character needs 3 stats, period. His attack stat, a secondary stat (which may or may not be a class stat, depending on how screwy his class is. Clerics, for example, shouldn't take charisma, because it doesn't help them enough). and a tertiary stat. All of these should contribute to one of his defenses. Everything else can be subbed through a feat or two.

Out of these things, the attack stat is the only thing that always matters (and for classes with two attack stats, you pretty much have to dump one... trying to maintain two is far too costly, and since you only ever have 10 attack powers, and you only get the last 2 from your paragon path, definitely not worthwhile).

Con, for the record, isn't worth putting points in if you have to take strength. Investing less than 9 points in CON is strictly inferior to the feats durable and toughness. And the opportunity cost of feats is really, really low, since most of them are garbage. Frankly, between their low effectiveness and how many you can take, the situation is the opposite of what it was in 3e- I'm actively looking for one or two even vaguely useful to plug into a character after I've chosen the handful I actually want.

Similarly, if you care about your other skills at all, Jack of all trades is worth more than putting 5 points in each of your 3 extra, pointless stats. Just make INT your secondary reflex stat, and go to town. If you want to specialize in a skill, skill focus is a lot better than extra stat points.

 

[Cadfan]

I keep seeing people make these claims about what the system does or does not reward, and they do it as if we were all creating characters without character classes. Just kind of stat arrays in a vacuum.

Personally, I think that the people who will most hate the system are those who believe that if you can get a 20 in your primary stat, you must. Once you've spent the points to purchase an 18 (=20 with racial bonus) you don't have much left over. So yes, you'll end up with 20/13/13 or 20/14/11.

But for me, I don't think that +1 to hit and damage is worth quite that much. Yes, its nice, yes, it applies to almost everything you do in terms of attacking, but a 20 costs you 7 points over top of what you'd have spent for an 18. If you start your character with the assumption that you want an 18 in your primary stat, suddenly a lot of doors open up. You could go (before racial mods) 16/15/13/13/10/8, or 16/15/12/12/10/10, or 16/14/13/13/10/10, or 16/14/12/12/12/10, or 16/13/13/13/12/10, or lots of other things.

For actual classes with actual needs, many of these are often better. Naturally this varies depending on your class, but it seems to be the case.