Point-buy equivalences?

[Ry]

I use a 28 point buy in my game, but some players wanted more - and I start characters at 2nd level.

What point buy would you suggest I give to balance 2nd level 28 point buys and 1st level point buys? I was thinking 32, but even that seems a little low for having to live through 1st-level fatality syndrome.

 

[Mark CMG]

Hi ry!

Maybe I am not understanding your question but (as you know) in a standard game, a character's ability scores do not increase (naturally) until 4th-level. So if, for instance, you have a character with the the Elite array, which works out to a 25 point buy (and +5 in modifiers), of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 and he leveled up at 4th-level, he might achieve the equivalent of a 27 point buy by raising the 15 or the 14 by one point. In the case of what I call the "Tough Array" of either 15, 14, 14, 12, 11, 9 or 15, 14, 14, 13, 10, 9, both of which which work out to a 28 point buy (and +6 in modifiers), one can only hope to jump to the equivalent of a 30 point buy by adjusting one of the highest scores by one point. What I consider the standard array for a high-powered campaign, or 32 points buy (and +9 in modifiers) is 16, 14, 14, 14, 10, 10. Granted there are a number of ways to massage these numbers and I'm sure some others can "point" them out but I'm just trying to illustrate the differences between them in a way to suggest that the growth from first level to second should probably best not be expressed in an ability score increase lest it be too much of an adjustment. Leave 1st-level character generation as is and perhaps look toward equipment as something easier to adjust, if you truly feel the disparity is enough to warrant some adjustment. That's my advice, anyway.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Are you talking about associating an LA with a higher point buy? So, they could have a higher point buy for a +1 LA? My first thought is don't do it. Bad idea. It's very difficult to balance stats with LA. Would you keep the 18 cap? 32 is far too low, as far as I'm concerned.

Why do you want to do this? Do your players just want higher stats? Personally, I'd rather have a level. What reason do you have for trying this out?

 

[Conaill]

My first thought is don't do it. Bad idea. It's very difficult to balance stats with LA.

Actually, assigning LA in general is very difficult. But counting in the effect of stats on LA is typically the easiest part.

I've gone through some of these caluclations myself in the past (too lazy to dig up the thread from a few years ago), but my personal conclusion was that 10 points is about equal to a +1LA.

I even suggested you could try to balance unequal rolled stats by letting the PCs with lower stats start with a bit more XP. Just caluclate everyones point-buy value after rolling, then give everyone 100 XP for every point they're below the one with the highest stats (assuming you start at 1st level). Bit more fine-grained than "10 points for +1LA".

 

[ThirdWizard]

It's difficult because of the diminishing returns of point buy and the 18 cap. Generally, adding to the point buy doesn't increase the player's primary focus, it decreases the drawbacks. It's hard to determine what 10 points will get you. If you use it to raise your primary stats, then it won't do much for you, possibly a 16 to an 18 and a 14 to a 16. Or you could use it to make sure you have no stats below 12, gaining more bonuses across the board.

A barbarian can't push a 16 to a 20 like with many LA races, for example. +6 Dex from a Githzerai is vastly different than +6 point buy. In fact, its closer to 15-20 pt buy points, depending on how one considers 19 and 20 on the scale. Yeah, they're +2 LA, but they get much more than that.

Personally, I wouldn't go for this option unless it gave a whole lot of points and raised the ability score cap with enough points to make full use of that. A few extra 12s-13s, while very very nice, IMO, doesn't an LA make.

 

[Conaill]

Oh, I'm sure +1LA per 10 points will break down at some point. And hitting the score cap with multiple abilities woudl be one way it can do so.

But for rycanada's original issue it'll probably work fine. Even with a 28 point-buy, you still don't tend to see too many 18 stats, and I can't think of any class that couldn't benefit from having a second 18 (instead of - say - a 20 and a 14). Maybe once you're up in the 40's point-buy the cap starts to really get in the way, but I can't really think of any reasonable character concept that requires more than 20 in any stat at 2nd level.

So my advice for rycanada's specific situation would be to give your players a choice:

1) start with a +1LA race (approved by the DM, of course)
2) start with a 38 point-buy
3) or roll your stats, and start out with 100XP for every point you're below a 38 point-buy.