Point-buy or rolling? Your preference and why?

[Will]

Apparently my earlier post wasn't worthy of comment. Sob.

A few points...

The issue of average _is_ important.

If you roll high, or low, the average doesn't matter... it's irrelevant to what's happening now.

What if I had a loaded die? Sure, it might not make much of a difference now... but in the long run, I'm always winning and exceeding everyone else.

Here's a thought. Roll 3d6. That is now your score in all abilities. Joe rolled an 18! You rolled a 3! Are you happy?

Yes, it's an exaggeration, but the point is saying that people won't make sufficiently 'different' characters is ignoring the fact that those differences generally mean someone is getting shafted.

Maybe not a lot, and maybe not right away, but it's like deciding that one person gets to use d% and the other person has to roll d4. In the long run, guy with the d4 doesn't get to do much.


And as for people playing the 'same person over and over'... Well, if you read my last post, not really. You could use the point buy system and randomly allocate the points.

Random character is a separate issue from random total power level.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

And as for people playing the 'same person over and over'... Well, if you read my last post, not really. You could use the point buy system and randomly allocate the points.

Random character is a separate issue from random total power level.

Here's a character generation system for you, that has a fixed power level but is random enough to start ideas for characters.

Start with the default array (15, 14,13,12,10,8).

Roll a d6 for each stat, and assign to the abilities according to:
1- Str
2- Dex
3- Con
4- Int
5- Wis
6- Cha

(scale/reduce as you get fewer and fewer stats -- roll a d4 for four stats left, etc).

Not customizable enough? Allow players to subtract two point from any stat to add one point back to another stat.

Then choose race & class.

 

[Negative Zero]

... accept that point buy gives you an advantage in that you can select even scores and not waste points on "odd" scores ...

just as a side note, with the 3e ability to stat-raise every four levels, the odd numbered scores aren't that much of a disadvantage.

Apparently my earlier post wasn't worthy of comment. Sob. ...

happens to me all the time buddy, i feel your pain

... What if I had a loaded die? ...

indeed, what if? however, if you did use a loaded die, then you (or rather your GM) would have more than enuff other problems to concern your/him/herself with than unbalanced characters. i'm pretty sure that most of the argument here assumes "fair" dice. (personal dice grudges aside )

of course there's the attached argument that the scores don't determine the fun of the character. but i think if that were true, all abilities scores would have the same bonues. but that's another thread

~NegZ

 

[Psion]

Yes, it's an exaggeration

Yes it is, and that's not irrelevant. I don't like an overbearing difference in character power. But I still like some variation in character power.

Maybe not a lot, and maybe not right away, but it's like deciding that one person gets to use d% and the other person has to roll d4. In the long run, guy with the d4 doesn't get to do much.

Now translate this to a more realistic situation. Is a character who with an effective 28 point total really going to be involved in an irrelevant amount of activity compared to one with 32?

And as for people playing the 'same person over and over'... Well, if you read my last post, not really. You could use the point buy system and randomly allocate the points.

Well, that doesn't solve my problem and it doesn't solve yours.

If all characters have the same total, but randomly distributed, then they are still cut from the same cloth. I'm not happy.

If characters have to randomly distribute their points, then they will still make characters that have a few of their high stats locked up in places that might not be the best for their concept, and it might as well be a different point total. You're not happy.

Random character is a separate issue from random total power level.

Indeed it is. I think both are preferable. I rather like the idea that a character who might prefer to have those two extra points in strength might have them tied up in charisma or wisdom. I really loathe uber-optimized characters; they seem unrealistic to me.

 

[Hackenslash]

I do have one question: Why do proponents of point-buy use the exact point buy that is given in the core rules? Has it been mathematically proven that it is a good solid system, or does everyone take WotC's word for it?

But is the point buy in the DMG the best way to go?

Well actually I use my own point buy system, which I have spent quite a while fine tuning and have come to think of it as a reasonable system, which should allow a player to create anything he/she wants. So here goes:

All stats start at 8 then it's one for one till you reach 15. Thereafter you need 2 points to have a "16" then a further 3 points to get a "17" and finally another 4 points to get an "18". The total amount of points I have decided to assign is "36". Example character:

Fighter: Str-18, Dex-12, Con-16, Int-10, Wis-12, Cha-9.

Feel free to use if you think it may be a system that will work in your campaign.

 

[Snoweel]

that's all well and good. but my point is that, probablility is just that; probablility. it doesn't dictate anything. at the time you roll your dice, whatever average you've determined there to be is irrelevant.

But your character doesn't exist in a vacuum.

He/she/it is one of many in the party, and for every uber-lucky stat array, there is likely to be one uber-poor sod who just misses out on being bad enough for a reroll (or whatever).

However...

Originally posted by tleilaxu
in my game the party fighter has S 16 D 16 C 16 I 14 W 12 Ch ?

and my cleric has S 14 D 14 C 14 I 12 W 16 Ch 12

Here we have a fighter worth 40+ points to buy (charisma isn't given) and a cleric worth 36.

Both of them belong to the uber-sw33t level of campaigning according to the point-buy guidelines given in the DMG (since they are markedly better than 32-point buy - the highest powered campign alluded to in the DMG).

But where is the character with the below-average total? I'm not surprised that such character isn't represented here - whenever I see PC stats from a campaign log, the entire party is without exception far better than average rolls would indicate!!!!1!!

So where are the PCs created with unlucky rolls? Do the other PCs kill them on sight out of sheer embarassment?

It seems the major unspoken justification for "letting the dice decide" is it's a convenient handwave for having a party full of Master Race Prototypes.

Dice my ass. Why don't you just admit that 32 points isn't enough for you to buy your phallic dream character and clear your conscience.

Pfeh. Me and Drake Darklance have had enough of this "debate".

 

[nsruf]

But where is the character with the below-average total? I'm not surprised that such character isn't represented here - whenever I see PC stats from a campaign log, the entire party is without exception far better than average rolls would indicate!!!!1!![

That's because groups of people who mostly roll crappy have all switched to point-buy long ago

[confession]I have to admit that the true reason I advocate pb is simply that I can't take people being smug about their superior scores - especially when I rolled average or sub-par again. But I also don't like it from players if I GM, so there.[/confession]

Only half joking, really

 

[BryonD]

But is the point buy in the DMG the best way to go?

When there is this much debate over whether point buy is even the way to go, I doubt it can be fine tuned beyond that. Certainly not to any general consensus.

To me it is not that the DMG scale is "the best", but rather that it gets the job done well enough. I do not hesitate to house rule if I think it makes things better. But I have never had a time when I thought the DMG scale caused any problems.

 

[KDLadage]

I am telling you -- playing cards are the way to go for stat generation.

At least in my humble opinion.

Your milage may vary.

In a manner of speaking.

So to speak.

Per se.

Yadda yadda yadda...

 

[bret]

I do have one question: Why do proponents of point-buy use the exact point buy that is given in the core rules? Has it been mathematically proven that it is a good solid system, or does everyone take WotC's word for it?

What makes it inherently better than, say 14-15 = 3 points, and 16 or higher = 5 points? Or 2 point cost to every score above 13?

The main reason I like point buy is that it doesn't require DM's to actually be present at the rolling, as most DM's feel they must be for dice rolls; all it takes is counting up to verify.

But is the point buy in the DMG the best way to go?

I use the one in the DMG because it is the one in the rules. I like that it is weighted, and try to avoid needless house rules. There would have to be a significant advantage to a different system in order to make it worth the hassle of changing the rules.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.