D&D 5E Point Buy or Standard Array

[abirdcall]

Here is a comparison of characters made with point buy vs standard array:


Variant Human: 16, 16, 16, 8, 8, 8 (w/+1 feat) / 17, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 (+1 feat)
or 16, 16, 14, 10, 8, 8 (w/other feat) / 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 (w/other feat)
Half-Elf: 16, 16, 16, 10, 8, 8 / 16, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8
Mountain Dwarf: 17, 17, 14, 10, 8, 8 / 17, 16, 13, 12, 10, 8
Other: 16, 16, 14, 12, 8, 8 / 16, 16, 13, 12, 10, 8 or 16, 15, 14, 12, 10, 8 (MAD character)

The characters are all weaker with standard array but they do have interesting decisions with their dump stats. Be a bit smarter, a bit stronger, a bit more charismatic? Rather than just having 8s in those stats with the odd 10 or 12.

 

[PnPgamer]

Why would you need DM supervision with the standard array?

Oh lol, i went far off topic. Dm supervision for rolling dice. Whoopsie me...
No wait, i should do this!
*inksplort zoidberg wubwubwubwubwub*

 

[billd91]

I think they did that on purpose.

That thought has crossed my mind.

 

[Li Shenron]

I like rolling stats for my own PCs, but I understand the concerns about fairness.

On the other hand, point-buy is a bit tedious sometimes, as it tends to encourage optimization. Unless players have already prepared their optimizations before coming to the game, you can sometimes end up in a situation where players start thinking too much and spend half an hour increasing here / decreasing there, and still at the end get the feeling that they might have made a mistake, especially if at some point you had enough and prompted them to speed up. This especially happens with newcomers, I don't want to have beginner players start off with the idea that D&D is a game about strategic perfectionism.

Thus I've been thinking about using standard arrays, but then a single array for everyone might be too much of a simplification, so probably I should settle for a small number (something like ~5) default standard arrays, all of which equivalent in terms of corresponding to valid point-buy combinations, but each having a different number of primary and secondary stats.

Maybe something like:

- array #1 > one primary
- array #2 > one primary, one secondary
- array #3 > two primary
- array #4 > one primary, two secondary
- array #5 > three primary

where the primary stats are as high as possible, the secondaries are mid-range between primaries and all other stats, and the latter are basically on par.

 

[Mercule]

Standard array is one possible expression of point buy. As such, I show the players the standard array and tell them to do their math from there.

Psychologically, people don't like reducing stats (to get points back to buy something else), even if it's dropping the 10 to an 8, so they can raise something else. That means that most characters tend to be minor deviation from standard array.

I don't really "get" how there's much room for discussion around whether point buy or standard array is "better", from a statistic POV. They're the same thing, other than some freedom. If players can exploit point buy, somehow, in a way that doesn't give them a narrow benefit for broad weakness, then it's a question of changing the cost of the stats. Really, though, I don't see it. I've played characters with multiple dump stats; other than very limited RP reasons, I'm not sure what would possess someone to do it.

 

[Remathilis]

I have come to the conclusion that 4d6 drop lowest just desn't work in 5e. Especially if feats and/or multiclassing are used. You just hit the ceiling too quickly.

On the flipside, are dump stats too minor?

When using point buy is a 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8 or similar array best? With a human or half-elf you can get 3 16s for MAD characters and with other races you can get 2 16s for standard characters.

Would it be best to only allow the standard array? It is the standard ability score generation method along with rolling.

The downside I see is that it makes characters too similar.

But I wonder if it really does. There are only a few ways to do point buy with racial bonuses that are good.

What do you think? Is there more to point buy than I am seeing or are there only a couple right answers that push to high and low stats?

Yes, its called "every stat has a save attached to it."

So your 16/16/16/9/9/9 character is going to be great at three saves, and have a -1 with three others. Now, since three saves are "lesser" anyway (not called on as much) we could put our three 9's in those scores, so that your scores are

Str: 9
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 9
Wis: 16
Cha: 9

Which I think makes you qualified to be a monk, druid, and archer.

 

[Jaron Mortimer]

My standard thing at my table (And that many DM's have picked up off me over time) is a standard array of 18 16 14 12 10 8, before racial modifiers. It's quite powerful, and totally leads to characters having a 20 in a stat at the start of the game, but I haven't found this to break much of anything; the Stats all cap out at 20 anyways, so as a DM I already know what i'm gonna be in for.

Also, make sure you take into account what the weak stats are for any characters in your game; You don't need to make everything a punishment, but every so often remind them that it was their CHOICE to dump that "dump stat". Dumped charisma scores are usually par for the course, but toss them against a ghost and see how many players roll a warlock or a sorcerer the next session.

Edit: To offer some explanation as to my decision, let me sum it up: The players want to be powerful. With this stat array, I do three things: one, I let the characters be strong in the area they chose to be strong in; two, I ensure that they have a weakness built in so that they are dependent on their party; and three, there's never a "No, I totally rolled all my stats higher than a 15!" arguements. Sure, you may get the same things with point buy, but I've never had anyone contest this stat spread.

 

[Minsc]

Standard array is one possible expression of point buy. As such, I show the players the standard array and tell them to do their math from there.

Psychologically, people don't like reducing stats (to get points back to buy something else), even if it's dropping the 10 to an 8, so they can raise something else. That means that most characters tend to be minor deviation from standard array.

I don't really "get" how there's much room for discussion around whether point buy or standard array is "better", from a statistic POV. They're the same thing, other than some freedom. If players can exploit point buy, somehow, in a way that doesn't give them a narrow benefit for broad weakness, then it's a question of changing the cost of the stats. Really, though, I don't see it. I've played characters with multiple dump stats; other than very limited RP reasons, I'm not sure what would possess someone to do it.

I disagree. I think point buy is definitely better. You get to choose to either go with standard array, or tweak it to make your character better. More choices is obviously better than less choices in this instance, where one of the choices is the exact same as the standard array.

 

[Tormyr]

Yes, its called "every stat has a save attached to it."

So your 16/16/16/9/9/9 character is going to be great at three saves, and have a -1 with three others. Now, since three saves are "lesser" anyway (not called on as much) we could put our three 9's in those scores, so that your scores are

Str: 9
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 9
Wis: 16
Cha: 9

Which I think makes you qualified to be a monk, druid, and archer.

rogue, cleric, and any dex fighter would work well with that as well. Does ranger use Wisdom for its spells? If so, that would work as well. I like that there are so many options for a given array.

 

[Minsc]

Yes, its called "every stat has a save attached to it."

So your 16/16/16/9/9/9 character is going to be great at three saves, and have a -1 with three others. Now, since three saves are "lesser" anyway (not called on as much) we could put our three 9's in those scores, so that your scores are

Str: 9
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 9
Wis: 16
Cha: 9

Which I think makes you qualified to be a monk, druid, and archer.

Nice, but I think we all know a variant human is better. , sure, one of those 16s becomes a 15, but all the 9s become 8, which doesn't matter, and you get a feat.