D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Yardiff]

True. It isn't necessary to have stats for common town folk just descriptors, but if they were to get into combat for some reason you'd need stat info. Its a time saver more then anything else.

 

[Yardiff]

Also Orc society is based on strength and toughness above all, so the general orc is most likely going be stronger and tougher then the general human/elf/etc.

 

[Oofta]

True. It isn't necessary to have stats for common town folk just descriptors, but if they were to get into combat for some reason you'd need stat info. Its a time saver more then anything else.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but how is generating ability scores for NPCs that won't ever see battle 99% of the time a "timesaver"? And if they do get into combat, why not just assume every ability score is 10?

Why not just pull up a standard NPC from the MM? Maybe grab a "Thug" instead of a commoner or a "Guard" based on your description, but otherwise why would anyone ever care?

Or do you really create individual statistics for every monster? I'm assuming that there are some ogres that are stronger than the average ogre - it's not very realistic that they always have a 19 strength, is it?

 

[Yardiff]

Its a timesaver to not stat commoners unless they are going to be in combat. The creatures in the MM are usually the commoners of the their monster society.

"It isn't(is not) necessary to have stats for common town folk just descriptors, but if they were to get into combat for some reason you'd need stat info."

 

[Maxperson]

No it pretty much says you don't have to roll stats not that they don't have stats.

"You don't need to roll ability scores for the NPC,"

Yep. [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] has to resort to taking sections of the NPC rules out of context or just plain ignoring what words mean in order for his statement to be true. The only NPCs that it specifically says doesn't need statistics is the quick NPC. For detailed NPCs it doesn't say that they don't have ability scores. It says you don't need to roll them and then provides three main ways to determine stats.

 

[Maxperson]

And then proceeds for the next few pages to tell you how to create NPC's with no stats. It's not until you get towards the end of the section, when they're mostly talking about NPC's that are either major villains or alies, that actually giving them stats at all is mentioned.

Those next few pages, with the exception of the one NPC abilities table, have nothing to do with stats. The one NPC abilities table in no way implies that no stats are present. It just gives you descriptors for high and low stats. Detailed NPCs have stats primarily generated via the three main methods of stat generation. That's the rules.

 

[Hussar]

True. It isn't necessary to have stats for common town folk just descriptors, but if they were to get into combat for some reason you'd need stat info. Its a time saver more then anything else.

Into combat with whom? Because, unless they're in combat with the PC's present, they don't need stats and won't use them. You just rule that X number of commoners got killed in Y event.

Yep. [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] has to resort to taking sections of the NPC rules out of context or just plain ignoring what words mean in order for his statement to be true. The only NPCs that it specifically says doesn't need statistics is the quick NPC. For detailed NPCs it doesn't say that they don't have ability scores. It says you don't need to roll them and then provides three main ways to determine stats.

Yup. The special NPC's that are either allies or enemies of the PC's need stats. How does that extrapolate to "every NPC needs stats"?

Those next few pages, with the exception of the one NPC abilities table, have nothing to do with stats. The one NPC abilities table in no way implies that no stats are present. It just gives you descriptors for high and low stats. Detailed NPCs have stats primarily generated via the three main methods of stat generation. That's the rules.

Again, why are you extrapolating? The rules say unless the NPC is a threat to PC's, they don't need combat stats. It doesn't say, "Hey, they don't need them, but, they all have them anyway". They just say, nope, unless you're going to adventure with it or kill it, you don't need stats AT ALL.

So, yup, NPC's that are going to need stats in order to be played at the table during the session need stats. Now, you could roll those stats, or just pick them, either is fine. Note, there is nothing there even suggesting that anyone else needs stats. Instead, every other NPC doesn't need combat stats.

If you don't need something, then if it you don't have it, it doesn't matter. Thus, it doesn't matter if NPC's, outside of the ones that are special, have stats or not.

 

[Maxperson]

Into combat with whom? Because, unless they're in combat with the PC's present, they don't need stats and won't use them. You just rule that X number of commoners got killed in Y event.

First, sometimes PCs get into combats with NPCs at unexpected times. Second, YOU just rule that X commoners get killed at Y event. For a lot of us, sometimes we rule that way and sometimes there are rolls involved, and stats are helpful with those rolls.

Yup. The special NPC's that are either allies or enemies of the PC's need stats. How does that extrapolate to "every NPC needs stats"?

You keep saying that, but repeating misinformation will not make it true. There is no wording that says anything about those being for special NPCs, rather than the detailed NPCs(every NPC other than quick ones) that the section indicates that they are for.

Again, why are you extrapolating? The rules say unless the NPC is a threat to PC's, they don't need combat stats. It doesn't say, "Hey, they don't need them, but, they all have them anyway". They just say, nope, unless you're going to adventure with it or kill it, you don't need stats AT ALL.

First, stats are not combat stats. They are simply stats. Stats are useful in all sorts of non-combat ways. Combat stats would be attacks, damage, armor class, etc. Second, that section is only for quick NPCs, not the detailed NPCs which are described in the pages after that one single paragraph.

 

[Oofta]

Those next few pages, with the exception of the one NPC abilities table, have nothing to do with stats. The one NPC abilities table in no way implies that no stats are present. It just gives you descriptors for high and low stats. Detailed NPCs have stats primarily generated via the three main methods of stat generation. That's the rules.

It's the last option in a long list of options. Before you get to that, you have "just use a general description", then "have 1 or two high/low ability descriptions but no concrete numbers" then "Only give them the stats they need" then "use an NPC from the Monster Manual". When you exhaust all of those options you get to generating ability scores.

NPC STATISTICS
When you give an NPC game statistics, you have three main options: giving the NPC only the few statistics it needs, give the NPC a monster stat block, or give the NPC a class and levels.​

Which is all very interesting from a philosophical perspective, but still doesn't answer the question of why it matters. In the cases where you create an NPC from scratch, you use your preferred generation method.

 

[Arial Black]

A more serious response: much like Schrodinger's cat, the ability scores of PCs are indeterminate until we open the box need the ability scores. A 12 is higher than average strength, so a 14 and above would be pretty significantly above average, and someone I would consider "brawny".

Once I need them the ability scores could be anywhere from 14 (not bad for a commoner) to 20 (ex adventurer, or important NPC that is "undercover"). Your scale of course may vary ... but the point is that there is no reason for the ability score to exist until you need it.

Which still doesn't answer the question. Why do we care and what does this have to do with point buy vs rolling for ability scores?

It all started when you made the claim that point-buy let's you make the PC you want. I then pointed out that since the general population is assumed to be generated by the 3d6 bell curve, and that any NPC is hypothetically a valid PC, that any score from 3 to 18 is a valid score for a PC. Since point-buy doesn't allow that, then point-buy does not allow players to play any valid concept they want; 'valid' being 'any normal person' in this case.

Even though you acknowledge that the 3d6 bell curve was part of the D&D NPC background assumption at the start, and that the 5E PHB states that normal people have stats from 3 to 18, and the 5E MM has commoners with stats of 10 (all of which is consistent with the 3d6 bell curve), you deny that the 3d6 bell curve is part of 5E and chalk up 5E's '3 to 18 average 10' as a massive co-incidence but definitely nothing to do with the 3d6 bell curve.

Even if you deny the reality of the bell curve, you cannot deny the 3 to 18 part because that is written in 5E.

Since point-buy does not allow stats below 8 or above 15, then bell curve or not, point-buy does not allow players to play whatever valid concept they want.