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<blockquote data-quote="JohnSnow" data-source="post: 3963803" data-attributes="member: 32164">That's true (my sources say 80,000, but I'm not going to quibble), but IMO early medieval Europe is generally far more consistent with the &quot;Points of Light&quot; conceit than Europe of the 1300s. Large populations are a result of reasonably stable and settled societies. Moreover, as you so elegantly point out, when cities get too large, plague strikes and the population levels drop. London lost about one-third of its population of 80,000 when the Black Death hit.I don't honestly see the POL conceit as being particularly &quot;dark&quot; fantasy. What it implies to me isn't dark - it's &quot;dark-ish.&quot; In other words, it's a society where civilization is constantly in a struggle with wilderness. That's largely consistent with, for example, Europe up until sometime in the middle ages. By the 14th or 15th century, most of Europe was starting to become &quot;civilized,&quot; but up until 1200 or so, most kingdoms were pretty small. Post-Roman Empire Europe dominated the society from about 400 until about 1000. For six hundred years, not a whole lot changed. Kingdoms rose and fell, and villagers and townspeople grappled with the wilderness. Forests were filled with the very real dangers of bandits and wild animals, and the imagined dangers of monsters, fey, and spirits.To me, that period, and the pre-Roman iron age, is the best representative of what a D&amp;D world ought to look like. PoL just allows us to keep that even after we start to get some merchants. It's, to me, a way of explaining why most D&amp;D worlds haven't progressed past a civilization level consistent with medieval Europe. Whenever they're about to, some internal struggle or outside force causes them to collapse. Yes, it's a stretch to extrapolate, but it explains how your D&amp;D worlds could have histories that go back thousands of years.Honestly, it's no more (and no less) &quot;dark fantasy&quot; than is Middle Earth. Which was essentially Tolkien taking iron age Europe and making it endure for thousands of years. Is that realistic? Probably not, but it sure is fun.There's a wonderful book on iron age and dark age Europe called The Real Middle Earth, which details the societies on which Tolkien primarily based his story. It's worth checking out, even if it talks more about hill forts and villages than actual towns and cities.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="JohnSnow, post: 3963803, member: 32164"] That's true (my sources say 80,000, but I'm not going to quibble), but IMO early medieval Europe is generally far more consistent with the "Points of Light" conceit than Europe of the 1300s. Large populations are a result of reasonably stable and settled societies. Moreover, as you so elegantly point out, when cities get too large, plague strikes and the population levels drop. London lost about one-third of its population of 80,000 when the Black Death hit. I don't honestly see the POL conceit as being particularly "dark" fantasy. What it implies to me isn't dark - it's "dark-ish." In other words, it's a society where civilization is constantly in a struggle with wilderness. That's largely consistent with, for example, Europe up until sometime in the middle ages. By the 14th or 15th century, most of Europe was starting to become "civilized," but up until 1200 or so, most kingdoms were pretty small. Post-Roman Empire Europe dominated the society from about 400 until about 1000. For six hundred years, not a whole lot changed. Kingdoms rose and fell, and villagers and townspeople grappled with the wilderness. Forests were filled with the very real dangers of bandits and wild animals, and the imagined dangers of monsters, fey, and spirits. To me, that period, and the pre-Roman iron age, is the best representative of what a D&D world ought to look like. PoL just allows us to keep that even after we start to get some merchants. It's, to me, a way of explaining why most D&D worlds haven't progressed past a civilization level consistent with medieval Europe. Whenever they're about to, some internal struggle or outside force causes them to collapse. Yes, it's a stretch to extrapolate, but it explains how your D&D worlds could have histories that go back thousands of years. Honestly, it's no more (and no less) "dark fantasy" than is Middle Earth. Which was essentially Tolkien taking iron age Europe and making it endure for thousands of years. Is that realistic? Probably not, but it sure is fun. There's a wonderful book on iron age and dark age Europe called [i]The Real Middle Earth[/i], which details the societies on which Tolkien primarily based his story. It's worth checking out, even if it talks more about hill forts and villages than actual towns and cities. [/QUOTE]

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